Realms of Belligerence

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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by warbot1000 » Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:12 am

i will wait until my mind can be unleashed,
*goes to search up what belligerence is*
nice name BBB

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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Big Bad Bug » Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:12 pm

Thanks. :)

I updated with some heroes for the Uldenrai, located at the bottom of the OP. Since balance can't be judged this early, at least let me know if they're cool and the stories make sense. (The italics paragraphs are my own descriptions of them, not found in-game.) ;)
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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by xstargaming » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:36 pm

Big Bad Bug wrote:The purple-skinned, 4-armed extraterrestrial beings sent to the continent of Natsurka by the Gods to colonize it. They have existed for eons in another dimension, gathering special crystals to deliver to the Gods in exchange for prolonged life. Though many of them have died from the battles fought for these crystals, ancient members of their race still live on as legendary heroes with greater connections to the Gods. The Uldenrai will do anything and everything to serve the Gods to the fullest, and on this new continent they will let nothing stand in the way of finding new crystals to deliver to the sacred deities above, even if it requires the mass destruction of other races seeking the crystals.


It's a good summary of their being, but I feel it lacks a key detail: what are the factions of these people? Also, does this world only have one continent? I ask since it seems odd that such entities would not reference the entire planet rather than a mere continent. It's good that you've stated the ideals of these people and their focuses; generalization gives way to intricacy later in time. Another question has crossed my mind however: are these gods those of these people only or do they apply to the whole of this world?

Now, I shan't offer judgement upon the units, primarily due to the fact that I know too little about the rest of the game to aptly make any sort of conclusions. However, I will ask a question: are these the "greatest" units that can be used? I presume as much given their titles and information.
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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Big Bad Bug » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:42 am

I don't know what you mean about factions amongst the people. Do you mean unit classes for the Uldenrai, because there are plenty of those. Social classes with various degrees of political input exist as well, though it's not yet a fully developed idea so there's no point in sharing it. Otherwise, I don't know what else you could mean. :?

By world, I assume you mean the actual planet. The game world takes place on the very large continent of Natsurka, and all battlefields that can be used for playing on are located in Natsurka, thus, descriptions will not be referencing any other areas across the oceans from Natsurka. This is because Natsurka is a special continent that happens to be one of the few places with a supply of those rare crystals that everyone is after. Whether or not the planet contains other continents is not something I considered, but in the case of a possible sequel, I will state that it does possess other landmasses, but Natsurka is the only one with crystals. This works better anyways, because it gives the Perallans and Ederonsare somewhere to journey from as they arrive at Natsurka.

The Gods are worshipped primarily by the Uldenrai, however, the other factions have differing beliefs. The Perallans are close to agnostic but not exactly, since they instead have simply not even thought of religious possibilities. Thething that runs the society is technology, and they spend time in schools and at home training children to be very tech-savvy, which sacrifices time spent elsewhere, especially in spiritual satisfaction. They simply haven't even questioned existence or wondered about other beings out there, and only now encounter Gods once the 4 races meet together in the continent. The Ederons are atheists because they focus on reality and take no pleasure in theorizing over matters that are out of their ability to prove. The Ferons are monotheistic, believing in one God who never appears in the game. As a matter of fact, the Ulden holy figures are the only ones that make any appearances in the game.

These units are not the strongest (except maybe Dakran because he's one of the ultimate heroes) since each faction has their own heroes with various abilities, and because of unit diversity, some will be effective in different ways. Allar'n is an effective duelist with his buffs and healing attacks, but against many enemies, Val'nus or Dakran would be better. Generally, as hero units, they are very strong, but there is a system in the game where you get Destruction Points, acquired by gaining XP in any form which contributes to a overall meter, filling up much more slowly than regular units do, but enabling special powers to use in emergencies. Some top-tier powers involve summoning creatures momentarily that take the title of being the strongest ones, though, in terms of permanent units, Dakran is supposed to be one of the 4 strongest non-summoned units since one can be made from each faction with the Antediluvian Gem (only one can be present at the time because of this) and Val'nus and Allar'n are the strongest heroes in the Ulden faction that can be made without the Gem. So, to answer your questions shortly: Yes, they are. :P :D
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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by xstargaming » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:49 am

Big Bad Bug wrote:I don't know what you mean about factions amongst the people. Do you mean unit classes for the Uldenrai, because there are plenty of those. Social classes with various degrees of political input exist as well, though it's not yet a fully developed idea so there's no point in sharing it. Otherwise, I don't know what else you could mean. :?


My apologies, I could have sworn that I read later about an indication of two powerful political parties vying for dominance over the crystals' control and usage. :lol: :oops:

Thank you for answering my other questions. :)
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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Big Bad Bug » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:58 am

Oh, that's what you mean. Yes, Val'nus is heading the side that wants to use the crystals to turn fellow Uldenrai into beings with otherworldly-levels of power, and Allar'n is part of the fully devoted sector of rule-following God worshippers. A third party exists that doesn't get very popluar until partially through the story where they believe the Gods are having them fooled and that the crystals are meant for a different purpose. I still haven't fully developed much, so how such things are executed in the campaign is a mystery to us all.

You're welcome, and thank you for taking the time to ask those questions. ;) Do the concepts of Destruction Points and ultimate heroes sound like good ideas for gameplay mixed in the play styles of each faction, so far? :)
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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by warbot1000 » Sat Jul 25, 2015 4:44 am

Big Bad Bug wrote:Oh, that's what you mean. Yes, Val'nus is heading the side that wants to use the crystals to turn fellow Uldenrai into beings with otherworldly-levels of power, and Allar'n is part of the fully devoted sector of rule-following God worshippers. A third party exists that doesn't get very popluar until partially through the story where they believe the Gods are having them fooled and that the crystals are meant for a different purpose. I still haven't fully developed much, so how such things are executed in the campaign is a mystery to us all.

You're welcome, and thank you for taking the time to ask those questions. ;) Do the concepts of Destruction Points and ultimate heroes sound like good ideas for gameplay mixed in the play styles of each faction, so far? :)

It all looks good
one thing that i want to see is damage formulas unless you are using the given attack values and taking them away from the opponents health.
If the above is true then have you considered shields of somekind which recude damage by a certain amount?
I think that you could use something similar to this formula if you wanted...
Damage = Attack/1+(Shield / 100 X 1)
and if shield breaking became a thing then you could change the one in the bracket above to 0.9 (10% piercing damage)

Just some food for thought

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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Big Bad Bug » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:01 am

Shields factor in a lot, and once I come up with 3 units for the Uldenrai, I'll post them to show the difference between heroes and units (for that faction) and the only unit I have fully designed is the Ulden Pikemen, which implement equipment swapping. They can enter a stance where they hold the spears with all of their hands, attacking with 50% more damage but losing the armor bonus of their shields, as well as a shield stance where they more tightly hug their shields for increased defense but reduced manoeuvrability. This becomes more potent when factoring in the upgrades for units, which involve equipment-based bonuses that multiply or divide in worth depending on which stances are used.

Shield breaking is an interesting idea that I hadn't thought of, but it seems superfluous at the moment. It would be a lot more for the game to handle for a system that would really only apply to units with shields, and I don't foresee a lot of that when the other 3 factions are based on machines/vehicles, Wizards and elementals, and finally animals and plants. The Uldenrai are the only units to actually utilize medieval weaponry, and while another unique thing for them would be cool, I don't plan on that many units to have shields anyways, and want to mostly focus on the weapons. But, I do like the idea for its creativity. ;)
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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by blu3 » Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:47 am

I like the idea and people like Kowa and friends would really enjoy this game but my main issue with it is that it seems really complicated and confusing, what with all the confusing names and concepts and factions, I mostly am not into mainstream games but I had to read your post a couple times to understand it. in terms of sales and people buying the game or downloading it, you should dumb it down a bit, it is quite an intricate game IMO and there is a reason why games like crossy roads and flappy bird get on the main page of the app store, if you could meet in the middle with simpler game mechanics (for lack of a better word) but an interesting story and unique fun features such as LOL or COC, i think it could be a hit.

just my two cents :mrgreen:
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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by warbot1000 » Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:35 am

blu3 wrote:I like the idea and people like Kowa and friends would really enjoy this game but my main issue with it is that it seems really complicated and confusing, what with all the confusing names and concepts and factions, I mostly am not into mainstream games but I had to read your post a couple times to understand it. in terms of sales and people buying the game or downloading it, you should dumb it down a bit, it is quite an intricate game IMO and there is a reason why games like crossy roads and flappy bird get on the main page of the app store, if you could meet in the middle with simpler game mechanics (for lack of a better word) but an interesting story and unique fun features such as LOL or COC, i think it could be a hit.

just my two cents :mrgreen:

I think this is just for our beneift scince there arn't pictures to show what he is talking about. With the game he can dumb it down and miss out large explanations of what for example a character looks like and replace them with a picture

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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Big Bad Bug » Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:43 pm

blu3 wrote:I like the idea and people like Kowa and friends would really enjoy this game but my main issue with it is that it seems really complicated and confusing, what with all the confusing names and concepts and factions, I mostly am not into mainstream games but I had to read your post a couple times to understand it. in terms of sales and people buying the game or downloading it, you should dumb it down a bit, it is quite an intricate game IMO and there is a reason why games like crossy roads and flappy bird get on the main page of the app store, if you could meet in the middle with simpler game mechanics (for lack of a better word) but an interesting story and unique fun features such as LOL or COC, i think it could be a hit.

just my two cents :mrgreen:


Those are some valuable 2 cents, Blu. ;)

What parts about it seemed complicated to you? I know for sure that the encyclopedia entries are going to be one of the most complicated things in the game, but those appear after unlocking them, so players will already be invested in the game by the time they see the deeper parts of the story. Stats for units aren't all going to be available to the player. XP, movement speed, stat growth, and healing rate aren't shown in the stats menu, but since they are parts of the units, I figured it would be worthwhile to list them. 1 thing I would like to change is the title, as most people probably won't know what "belligerence" means. Too bad most of the "simple" titles are already taken.
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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Big Bad Bug » Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:13 pm

Update!!! :mrgreen:

I added in one of the units, but I have pictures and information (and everything else) about the other units to post soon.

This game is going to have the good 'ole Rock Paper Scissors style of balancing its units, but it won't be extremely heavy like in BFME. Cavalry are fast, so they can get to archers quick enough to kill them without being hurt by the arrows that much, but archers aren't going to be automatically more vulnerable to attacks from mounted units. Likewise, cavalry have inferior melee stats to normal ground infantry, but they won't take damage by trampling them. The system isn't a built-in way of ensuring that units die to the same units all the time, but it should naturally occur just because of the way troops are balanced. Hopefully, it will be executed right, and if not, let me know. ;)

The Ulden Slaughterers, Ulden Snipers, Ulden Impalers, and the Higher Ulden will be updated sometime today.
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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Chimto » Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:26 am

Big Bad Bug wrote:This game is going to have the good 'ole Rock Paper Scissors style of balancing its units, but it won't be extremely heavy like in BFME

So basically the gameplay is completely taken out of the player's hands. He has no choice in what to do because if enemy has unit A he needs unit B because unit C is totally useless. Micro becomes a null-factor and so the gameplay has little driving it other than trying to cockblock the enemy first. Hard counters aren't necessarily a bad thing, but they must be used in careful moderation. Be careful not to take away power from the player. The player must be in control of his units, not pre-determined values. Every unit should be viable in multiple situations and not specifically built to counter another specific unit.
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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Big Bad Bug » Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:31 am

Chimto wrote:
Big Bad Bug wrote:This game is going to have the good 'ole Rock Paper Scissors style of balancing its units, but it won't be extremely heavy like in BFME

So basically the gameplay is completely taken out of the player's hands. He has no choice in what to do because if enemy has unit A he needs unit B because unit C is totally useless. Micro becomes a null-factor and so the gameplay has little driving it other than trying to cockblock the enemy first. Hard counters aren't necessarily a bad thing, but they must be used in careful moderation. Be careful not to take away power from the player. The player must be in control of his units, not pre-determined values. Every unit should be viable in multiple situations and not specifically built to counter another specific unit.


You quoted the solution yourself:

Big Bad Bug wrote:...but it won't be extremely heavy like in BFME


Upgrading soldiers and using buffs is enough to make them strong enough that units who would otherwise have an advantage will now be beaten. Aren't the different stances already good enough indicators of this?
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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by The Kingmaker » Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:36 am

If I could add something, I think a Rome Total War system may work here. (Not Rome 2, that sucks)
Depending on the budget allowed for a battle, and the faction your enemy chose, you would make some educated guesses.

Now there are pikemen, who have the longest reach and are great against cavalry, while spearmen can do a little more work against other infantry but still remain good against cavalry. Both can be mobile, but must form in formation before battle starts, at which point they become lethargic. Both are slightly more expensive than swordsmen.
Swordsmen won't beat either if they get into formation before they arrive, thus (unless you're the OP batallions that seem to walk past the pikes) you must flank with the more units you can afford with your lower cost.

I could explain everything, but I will now go into direct examples.

I choose Macedon, who have arguably the best pikemen and excellent Companion cavalry. As always, I choose a front row of pikemen, some archers behind them, plenty of cavalry, and if I have money left, one or two spearmen to guard the flanks.
My opponent chooses the Seleucids, who have slightly poorer pikemen (but are still excellent), but can also get my Companions. In addition to this, they can also get Cataphracts, which are slower moving cavalry that can pierce armour, making them great against, say Companions. I also know I have better archers than he does, but he has excellent swordsmen on his flanks as well.

My strategy is to hold my pike line, prevent flanking, shoot his archers and then his weaker units into submission. My cavalry will have to work with my flank preventing spearmen as they cannot beat Cataphracts alone, but may together. However my cavalry will also have to prevent his swordsmen from flankin, meaning my micro will be crucial.

In this scenario, micro will be the deciding factor, as the pikes in the centre and the archers behind them will probably remain, taking roughly equal losses for quite a while. This means whoever's cavalry and infantry on the flank wins, will be victorious, as their cavalry can then ride down my archers and then go straight into the backs of my pikes, killing them. Micro is crucial because both sides have rock, paper and scissors, and want to use them against the right target, while avoiding their weakness. When two scissors meet (pikemen say) it comes down to numbers and quality.

Now in another scenario, I choose to have equal archers to my opponent, as I decide the ranged edge will not help, and instead fund than money into more spearmen to help win the cavalry battles. Instead of his archers and left cavalry wing, my opponent buys a single unit of Elephants and another of chariots. He has some money left over to buy some more archers, but not enought to ever beat mine if they are targeting each other.

Arguably, I have lost, as the elephants and chariots will beat me on the left and the chariots will run down my archers, making them null, and the elephants will smash my entire pike line. Now, regardless of what happens on the right flank, I have lost as he has rock, paper, and scissors, while I only have paper and a little scissors.
However all is not lost, with superior micro, I can see his elephants coming and divert some pikemen and all my spearmen towards them. As they approach, my archers will shoot them with flaming arrows, which can make them flee (but don't in this case). My pikes engage and manage to hold long enough for the fire to make both intimidated. The elephants should fall and the chariots flee. My archers may have been shredded by the enemy archers, but with all of my cavalry on the right wing, I surrounded the superior enemy cavalry and smashed them with numbers. On both sides either my spearmen or cavalry flank and hit the backs of the enemy pikemen, and I win.
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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by The Kingmaker » Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:41 am

TL;DR, Rock, Paper, Scissors isn't bad if all groups have several of each and it essentially becomes a game of cat and mouse, where instead of using rock against scissors, both sides will smash their rocks together as this will keep their crucial scissors safe, while they both think that their rock can beat the other.
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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Big Bad Bug » Sun Aug 16, 2015 2:19 pm

Update with the Ulden Slaughterers. I also fixed the numbers, because I had forgotten that everything was in the thousands and hundreds to avoid decimals. :P

@Kingmaker

RTS games are called Real Time Strategy for a reason, and I think the "real time" part of that comes with micromanagement of your units. The only problem is that the enemy player could micro his units as well, and if he had a superior army, he would still win. You're given a chance, but that chance comes when building your army and at the last second on the field, but once the armies are truly clashing, it has to be all ogre for someone. ;) It isn't like a fighting game where you can always counter every attack and the enemy can counter all of your attacks.

Like all things, there needs to be a balance. The RPS can't be too heavy or situations become predictable, boring, and frustrating. Micro can't be too useful or it takes away the strategy part of the game, because there would be no point in getting advanced units if you could micro your way to victory with only a few basic troops, or a hero. It will be hard finding that balance, so I'm listening for when anyone points out any error(s), but wait until I've actually finished the Uldenrai troops to see if it actually is balanced or not. ;) I still need the 2 archers and the cavalry.
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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by The Kingmaker » Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:02 pm

Of course, however you should always have something to counter an enemy attack with, even if it may not be your strong suit. For instance if the Ulendrai have, for some reason, no spearmen, I know I could buy large amounts of superior cavalry and run rings around him. My example failed to mention the importance of quality, but as I have superior pikemen, that puts pressure on my opponent to win the cavalry fights as fast as possible in order to prevent his entire front line from collapsing. As he has superior cavalry I want to avoid them breaking through at any costs, I would probably charge in my archers, spearmen and cavalry at his if I had to, purely to delay them from touching my pikemen.
(Another long example incoming)

For instance one I played as Carthage who have good spearmen, cavalry and slinger, but donthave the best in any, making them a jack of trades. (I didn't get their elephants on this occasion). My opponent was the Greeks, who have terrible and limited cavalry, worse slingers, but many high quality Spearmen, mainly Armoured Hoplites and Spartans. The former are equal if not slightly weaker than my spearmen, but the Spartans are far superior and, due to hellish health stats, often cause cavalry to die upon charging them, even from behind.

My enemy forsake cavalry almost entirely and has three rows of infantry. Spartans in the front, slingers in the middle and Armoured Hoplites formed an entire back line to prevent my cavalry. Try as I might, I could not find a way to fully get my cavalry into his forces. My cavalry where high in number and I used some to draw away the Armoured Hoplites, a few lucky groups got into his lines and his slingers fled, but my cavalry disintegrated upon the backs of the spartans and those that didn't were cut off and killed by the Hoplites. My infantry line broke and I had to retreat.

With only cavalry and slingers on my side, and only hoplites on his, we both had to rethink. He has scissors, and I had paper and rock. He formed a ring with his hoplites. My cavalry and slinger formed a looser ring with an unspoken large boundary between them. My slingers moved forwards, with my cavalry close so if he made a run for them I would surround and kill the running unit. The slingers proceeded to use all of their ammo and severly weakened the enemy circle by shooting the backs of his men. They whittled down to a triangle, two sides were comprised of the three largest units, while the third was about five far smaller ones. With my slingers done, I charged most of my cav into that third line, which broke and could not deal much damage, before my cav moved onto his now turned spearmen, exposing their backs to my other cavalry, seeing he was finished he admitted defeat.

A battle should never be lost before it is fought, unless there is a huge number or quality difference. Just my opinion I think.
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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Chimto » Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:36 am

Units Commanded: 6

Command Points: 4 (24)

Wait a minute. Did you feel compelled to force AI-controlled squads into this game?
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Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Big Bad Bug » Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:43 am

I sense displeasure. What's wrong with having unit groups? It makes area damage more valuable and single target overkills less so.
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