Realms of Belligerence

Talk about anything game related!

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Chimto » Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:17 am

Squads do not belong in an RTS. Period.

Squads remove control from the hands of the player and, graphically, can get very confusing. Control often became infuriating, especially on a map any more complicated than a giant flat square. This difficulty in control pulls you away from the gameplay and more into a symphony of smashing your face into your keyboard. Squads dumb down the gameplay to a point where you rarely need to even pay attention to where your units are or what they're doing; so long as they're shooting at something, you're good.
A reckoning will not be postponed indefinitely. All shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well.
User avatar
User
 
Posts: 1671
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:58 am
Location: Lair; Carnival; Well; Not; Nadir; Chapel; Mountain

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Big Bad Bug » Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:40 am

I get what you mean about AI forcing away player control. However, when engaging in larger scale battles, something that I aim for this game to achieve, having battalions of units be able to somewhat take of themselves is more of a blessing, isn't it? I wouldn't mind them phasing through each other (only if they're allies, of course, as enemies can block other units) if it meant getting to see large armies clash against each other. I can't figure why you feel this way, as I never have had issues commanding large groups of units other than them getting stuck, which is simply something that I will fix in this game by letting them squeeze between each other.
BBB
User avatar
Moderator
 
Posts: 7814
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:22 pm
Location: Your worst nightmares

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Chimto » Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:08 am

Big Bad Bug wrote:I get what you mean about AI forcing away player control. However, when engaging in larger scale battles, something that I aim for this game to achieve, having battalions of units be able to somewhat take of themselves is more of a blessing, isn't it? I wouldn't mind them phasing through each other (only if they're allies, of course, as enemies can block other units) if it meant getting to see large armies clash against each other. I can't figure why you feel this way, as I never have had issues commanding large groups of units other than them getting stuck, which is simply something that I will fix in this game by letting them squeeze between each other.

One word: MICROMANAGEMENT. Look at Dawn of War: most vehicles do little damage to infantry besides very specific vehicles. Yet, you can actually easily rush vehicles and completely decimate your opponent if he doesn't see it coming simply because you can micro vehicles but you can't micro infantry. The high level gameplay of Dawn of War is so pathetic that the majority of players who got into it ended up dropping out after a week or two. The concept of squads makes infantry combat automated and boring.

Let the players micro for themselves. Don't simplify game mechanics by trying to cater to a mythical 'casual' audience: you'll take out the factors that make an RTS what it really is - Real-time strategy, an intellectual genre that pits players head-to-head in a game forcing them to use their skill, cunning, guile, and instinct as a means to tactically and strategically overcome their opponent using a variety of elements and techniques.
A reckoning will not be postponed indefinitely. All shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well.
User avatar
User
 
Posts: 1671
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:58 am
Location: Lair; Carnival; Well; Not; Nadir; Chapel; Mountain

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Big Bad Bug » Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:35 pm

Alright, forgive me for making you answer all these questions, Chimto, but I don't get HOW battalions mess up micromanagement and take away tactical/strategic skill. To me, it's just a couple (in this case, 6) units fighting together against other groups of units. It looks cooler, especially when late-game arrives with more powerful abilities and is more realistic that troops move together in small battalions for protection. Splitting them up shouldn't become a necessity in the game since they're in pretty small groups to begin with; you can still micro the squad(s) to fight another squad(s) while other groups of units fight.
BBB
User avatar
Moderator
 
Posts: 7814
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:22 pm
Location: Your worst nightmares

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Chimto » Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:03 pm

Because then you cannot micro each individual trooper? You can do whatever you want with a unit without such a system. Compare, say, Starcraft with Dawn of War: in both games you control squads, but in SC if a unit from the 'squad' is hurt you'll order it to go heal / back up,... In DoW your unit is DEAD and you can't do anything about it. It simplifies things because you don't need to control 20 individual units, instead you just control 3-4 squads which is dumbed down. Why don't "awesome micro in DoW/CoH" videos and competitions exist? Warcraft 3 and especially Starcraft: Brood War are THE most competitive RTS games to date and both require great micro. Too much micro is a bad thing but don't let that make you not add things that require more micro, you just have to balance it out with more power to the units which require the most control.

By adding a squad system, you're focusing too much on the realism of the game to the detriment of the gameplay (especially high-level). What can I say... Do not try to apply real life logic into game mechanics.
A reckoning will not be postponed indefinitely. All shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well.
User avatar
User
 
Posts: 1671
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:58 am
Location: Lair; Carnival; Well; Not; Nadir; Chapel; Mountain

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by The Kingmaker » Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:25 pm

I personally am in favour of units of individual things as it easier on the loser, as with 8 troops total you will lose all of them if you lose in battle, but with 80 or 800 total you will hopefully have some survivors and some hope remaining.
However I also agree that too many or too large units are too micro intensive and would be stressful and confusing.

Thus having a cap to the number of troops would be a good idea imo, this way if you have weakened, but important units you can make them replenish, while being able to recruit some fodder to defend while they heal. As part of this I will link to the troop names in KR (which BBB said he didn't like :D) Arguably this allows the player to invest in the game by forming an emotional connection with their troops and a vested interest in keeping them alive, in order to do this after a loss, you would want to ignore that "disband unit" button and let them replenish, however if you have done this to all of your units then you will not have enough troops to stave off an enemy attack.

Urg
"Aragorn: [Elvish] Sit down, Legolas."
Image

My treasured creations:
The Oddities, The Four Elementals, Gathering Twilight
The Community Improves Heroes
User avatar
User
 
Posts: 1899
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 4:42 pm
Location: A stage (but all the world's a stage)

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Big Bad Bug » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:02 am

How about this mechanic here, implemented in the situation of the game having single units:

Selecting multiple units adds a new option to the list of options with selected troops, this new option being that you can "combine" soldiers of the same type to form mini squads that can then be broken up at any time in order to micro them better. Players who like having battalions of soldiers such as myself can then have that without strictly forcing players who don't prefer this way to conform to it.
BBB
User avatar
Moderator
 
Posts: 7814
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:22 pm
Location: Your worst nightmares

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Chimto » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:57 am

The Kingmaker wrote:As part of this I will link to the troop names in KR (which BBB said he didn't like :D) Arguably this allows the player to invest in the game by forming an emotional connection with their troops and a vested interest in keeping them alive

And then... what? It's still no more than a gimmick, not a worthy feature.
Big Bad Bug wrote:How about this mechanic here, implemented in the situation of the game having single units:

Selecting multiple units adds a new option to the list of options with selected troops, this new option being that you can "combine" soldiers of the same type to form mini squads that can then be broken up at any time in order to micro them better. Players who like having battalions of soldiers such as myself can then have that without strictly forcing players who don't prefer this way to conform to it.

You don't need it. Just use control groups.
A reckoning will not be postponed indefinitely. All shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well.
User avatar
User
 
Posts: 1671
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:58 am
Location: Lair; Carnival; Well; Not; Nadir; Chapel; Mountain

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Big Bad Bug » Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:38 am

Alright, well, I still have doubts. Everything now needs to be rebalanced, and the expendability of troops is less apparent if they can be so easily saved, which sort of weakens the theme of selfish fighting being wrong. Plus, it's still only 6 troops at most in a battalion.

Even with the massive battalions in BFME 2, the only problem I have with them is how easily clumped together they get, which won't be a problem because I'll just allow units to phrase through each other to attack enemies all at once, which is OK since:

God (Chimto) wrote:Do not try to apply real life logic into game mechanics.


With that out of the way, there is still some micro without it being too hard to move a lot of units at once. This is going to be a mobile game, and while I have nothing against hardcore or casual styles of play, the grouped units really shouldn't be negating the tactical options of the player.

Perhaps a specialised interface would make squads work better here...
BBB
User avatar
Moderator
 
Posts: 7814
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:22 pm
Location: Your worst nightmares

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by The Kingmaker » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:55 am

I meant that keeping, maintaining and upgrading units, over time you will want to keep your troops alive, and having larger units is more considerate of that.

I'll shut up now
"Aragorn: [Elvish] Sit down, Legolas."
Image

My treasured creations:
The Oddities, The Four Elementals, Gathering Twilight
The Community Improves Heroes
User avatar
User
 
Posts: 1899
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 4:42 pm
Location: A stage (but all the world's a stage)

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by phillipriv9 » Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:02 am

Love the idea so far and the units(idc how you setup the squads personally as I'm good at micro)
@Chimto LoTRBfME uses squads that a big RTS, Halo wars uses squads, I can name several very successful RTS games with Squads. Single unit micro is much harder then squad micro. I can tell you being that I was a platinum ranked Starcraft player.
So being able to micro squads means you are much better skilled player at RTS, as squads are harder swap out units, scout and other things, so this is both easy and difficult for both new and experienced RTS players.
1 there I put something here
User avatar
User
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:12 am
Location: I'm currently nuking all the good in the world

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Chimto » Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:48 am

Single unit micro is much harder then squad micro. I can tell you being that I was a platinum ranked Starcraft player.

Did I say otherwise?
LoTRBfME uses squads that a big RTS, Halo wars uses squads, I can name several very successful RTS games with Squads.

Financially and as a result literally, games like Dawn of War are a success. Companies make games to make money and feed each of their staff's 20 overweight children and repair the holes in their thatch roofing for the next summer rain. These games sold, they were a success. Period. Some games didn't sell, and were a total failure. In the eyes of the majority of developers, this all that matters.
And ultimately, none of them could achieve the success to be able to rival Starcraft or even Warcraft. I think that maintaining a level of esteem for a long time, and help keep the progaming scene from becoming stale, is more important than simply saying WELL LOL 20K PEOPLE ARE PLAYING IT ON RELEASE OMG.
A reckoning will not be postponed indefinitely. All shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well.
User avatar
User
 
Posts: 1671
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:58 am
Location: Lair; Carnival; Well; Not; Nadir; Chapel; Mountain

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by phillipriv9 » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:01 am

I know a lot of people still play Battle for middle earth, so your statement is a bit falty, as it hasn't gone stale
1 there I put something here
User avatar
User
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:12 am
Location: I'm currently nuking all the good in the world

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Chimto » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:38 pm

Anyway, we are going off topic here. My point was that: squads take away control of units from the hands of the player, dumbs down micro and significantly decreases the skill ceiling of the game.
A reckoning will not be postponed indefinitely. All shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well.
User avatar
User
 
Posts: 1671
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:58 am
Location: Lair; Carnival; Well; Not; Nadir; Chapel; Mountain

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by phillipriv9 » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:39 pm

I will admit this is true but this is BBB's game lets keep in mind here but I do agree with you on that
1 there I put something here
User avatar
User
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:12 am
Location: I'm currently nuking all the good in the world

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Big Bad Bug » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:43 pm

Chimto wrote:Anyway, we are going off topic here. My point was that: squads take away control of units from the hands of the player, dumbs down micro and significantly decreases the skill ceiling of the game.


But if I let units move through each other to avoid clustering, shouldn't these issues be solved?
BBB
User avatar
Moderator
 
Posts: 7814
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:22 pm
Location: Your worst nightmares

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by phillipriv9 » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:47 pm

Not really, as the main point of individual micro is the following

1.Being able to move single units In and out of combat for healing

2. To Scout enemy bases without a whole squad

3.To pick off builders

4.To secure objectives

5.Map Control(as in multiple bases and harassing your enemy in areas of the map)
1 there I put something here
User avatar
User
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:12 am
Location: I'm currently nuking all the good in the world

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by wailwail » Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:04 pm

How about being able to manually squad units, they will keep their battle position ( For example you want to keep the ranged units behind when moving them ) and the fast ones will slow down so they won't rush alone?
Image
User avatar
User
 
Posts: 2260
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:46 am
Location: In Linirea , protecting Denas as his personal guard

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by Juice Box » Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:08 pm

wailwail wrote:How about being able to manually squad units, they will keep their battle position ( For example you want to keep the ranged units behind when moving them ) and the fast ones will slow down so they won't rush alone?


Most RTS games already have that feature. The speed of an entire army is only as fast as the slowest unit. Pretty handy when you've got the big guns with you.
User
 
Posts: 2118
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2014 4:54 am

Re: Realms of Belligerence

by The Kingmaker » Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:51 pm

Just realised I was arguing about Units when the debate was about Squads :roll:

If you and your enemy have equal numbers of units then squads become irrelevant. You must use micro to gain the edge. I think just doing the "click and drag to make a selection box" the easiest way of making squads as I only use squads in the short term, for when I have made a formation and want to advance in that formation. When battle itself begins the most use squads are going to be is if you put all your flanking units in a squad and make them move around the main lines.
Even then it's a bit too rough and I prefer individual micro anyway.
"Aragorn: [Elvish] Sit down, Legolas."
Image

My treasured creations:
The Oddities, The Four Elementals, Gathering Twilight
The Community Improves Heroes
User avatar
User
 
Posts: 1899
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 4:42 pm
Location: A stage (but all the world's a stage)

PreviousNext

Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests