Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by The Kingmaker » Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:46 am

The stuff I was saying was what will happen when that army attacks my base.

My archers will shoot them full of arrows before the lagging orcs reach them.
Then once Sauron is dead all my troops are thrown back.

:D Tom Bombadil isn't actually Eru, but its really a fan theory (like a 1950's fan theory) With what Bombadil says it just fits.

What would you use to stop a Theoden Empowered (0.1x damage for 30 seconds) Rohirrim horde? Mumakil? Phalanxes?
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by Juice Box » Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:34 am

It's always satisfying to see Rohirrim annihilate pikes, something they should normally be weak against. To be honest, I'd probably just go for Mumakil in this case. They are perhaps the one thing more satisfying than Attack Trolls.
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by The Kingmaker » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:57 am

Dear God yes, attack trolls.

It feels like they're a family, that you nurture to level 5 (so they regen health), you can get them to build a larger family due to Dominate Troll etc.

It was great fun, I made a 3v3 on an 8 player map. (Me and 5 AIs) I was in the centre as Mordor, so rushed Mouth of Sauron. Then I immediately got the weaker trolls and armed them with trees. They almost destroyed an enemy base, but were killed by pikes. Then I got 6 attack trolls. With War Chant and some orc fodder, then destroyed that same base and returned, all alive and all level 5.

They proceeded to destory all the enemy bases, not losing a single troll. It felt so great!

BBB, have you seen RuudDevil's chamber of Secrets mode? Its a fanmade dungeon crawler map. You have to choose 6 heroes and get to the end. He sort of cheated, by using Roghash the OP troll (the one that catapulted Gimli when they both used their leaps) and using his Dominate Troll on any of the attack trolls the AI sends his way.

The AI armies respawn until you clear certain areas, so he waited, got all his heroes to level 7+ and built up an army of about 10 attack trolls. That combined with hero summon powers and (because he was playing as Gondor) loads of free levied summons meant his heroes could run around and kill everything, while the fodder distracted and the trolls killed everything. Its about an hour total, but it's worth it. (Its split in two vids)
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by Big Bad Bug » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:32 pm

The Kingmaker wrote:What would you use to stop a Theoden Empowered (0.1x damage for 30 seconds) Rohirrim horde? Mumakil? Phalanxes?


Depends on the army, doesn't it? The strongest pikemen are either Phalanxes or Half-Troll Marauders (I'm going to ask Ruuddevil on his next VS video to pit them against each other) so they'd likely be good against them. If I could have any army of units, I'd line up the front with fully upgraded Half-Trolls all getting buffed by the Goblin King as he summoned 3 Drakes to burn the Rohirrim and Theoden into the ground. In the back, I'd have the best archers available, which are of course the Mirkwoods, who have so much range and damage that they can kill cavalry before they get trampled. I don't know who would win, to be honest. If I got Gorkil to poison Theoden and immediately take him out, it would at least get rid of his Leadership and make things easier.

The Kingmaker wrote:Dear God yes, attack trolls.

It feels like they're a family, that you nurture to level 5 (so they regen health), you can get them to build a larger family due to Dominate Troll etc.


The Xbox 360 version doesn't have health refen and some other features that you guys get. :(

The Kingmaker wrote:It was great fun, I made a 3v3 on an 8 player map. (Me and 5 AIs) I was in the centre as Mordor, so rushed Mouth of Sauron. Then I immediately got the weaker trolls and armed them with trees. They almost destroyed an enemy base, but were killed by pikes. Then I got 6 attack trolls. With War Chant and some orc fodder, then destroyed that same base and returned, all alive and all level 5.

They proceeded to destory all the enemy bases, not losing a single troll. It felt so great!


This is why Mordor is my favourite army. I love progressing from a few hordes of Orcs to battalions of Haradrim and Attack Trolls, and finally Mumakil and Catapults with your maxed out heroes charging into the enemy base as I summon the Balrog and possibly the Wyrm. Seeing what your army has become is so satisfying, and I love how diverse all of the units are. Orcs, Easerlings, Corsairs, Trolls, Mumakil, Fellbeasts, Ringwraiths, and the beasts that their powers summon are all part of Mordor and no matter what, if you have a large army of any of these things, it always looks cool.

The Kingmaker wrote:BBB, have you seen RuudDevil's chamber of Secrets mode? Its a fanmade dungeon crawler map. You have to choose 6 heroes and get to the end. He sort of cheated, by using Roghash the OP troll (the one that catapulted Gimli when they both used their leaps) and using his Dominate Troll on any of the attack trolls the AI sends his way.

The AI armies respawn until you clear certain areas, so he waited, got all his heroes to level 7+ and built up an army of about 10 attack trolls. That combined with hero summon powers and (because he was playing as Gondor) loads of free levied summons meant his heroes could run around and kill everything, while the fodder distracted and the trolls killed everything. Its about an hour total, but it's worth it. (Its split in two vids)


I did see it, and Rogash vs Gimli (Battle of the OP Heroes) along with every VS video. Did you know that I suggested Mumakil vs Battlewagons? I'm looking forward to seeing Phalanxes vs Half Trolls, Rohirrim vs Spider Riders, and Attack Trolls vs The Balrog. :twisted:
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by wailwail » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:46 pm

Sooo... this is just an imbalanced buggy piece of ****?
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by Big Bad Bug » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:58 pm

Everything is OP in certain ways but UP in other ways. This game has a really good way of handling balance between units by using a Rock-Paper-Scissors system. Swordsmen are good against Pikemen, Pikemen are good against Cavalry, Cavalry are good against Archers, and Archers are good against Swordsmen. That's the gist of it,mand it wasn't fully executed to perfection, but no matter what, there is always a way of countering an attack, so you always have a chance. That's part of this game's glory.

As for bugs, there aren't many glitches in the game, and the one I used to get 5 thousand Orcs required me to use catapults for 4 hours to limit my battalions before upgrading them all. So, that exploit requires massive amounts of time and effort.
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by Juice Box » Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:33 am

Big Bad Bug wrote:This game has a really good way of handling balance between units by using a Rock-Paper-Scissors system. Swordsmen are good against Pikemen, Pikemen are good against Cavalry, Cavalry are good against Archers, and Archers are good against Swordsmen. That's the gist of it,mand it wasn't fully executed to perfection, but no matter what, there is always a way of countering an attack, so you always have a chance. That's part of this game's glory.


That's actually one of its more disappointing aspects, in my opinion. Just me, but I'm fine with the whole "good-against-this good-against-that" system as long as it's not the defining thing in the game.

In BFME2, so much could have been done to individualize the races, but instead it all feels like the same rock-paper-scissors strategy but with different stats. This is most evident between the "good" races. For example, you compare the Mithlond Sentries, the Tower Guards and the Phalanxes, and you realize there's not much difference among them save for the fact that they all have differing levels of durability and speed.

Of course, sometimes this problem is averted, like in the case of Mirkwood Archers and Ithilien Rangers, who have different abilities to give them more variety, but still. The problem's there.

This is actually why I find it so hard to find a decent strategy game. Most RTS's simply follow the Rock-Paper-Scissors formula, and it sucks. Warcraft and Starcraft, for example. They're good, but they still rely on the Rock-Paper-Scissors formula for their games.

Not, like, advertising or anything, but Company of Heroes remains my favorite ever RTS because of this, and I'll make a thread for it when I have time. Yes, some units are good against others, but the advantages they have are minimal in the long run. What matters more is how you utilize the vast abilities each unit has, and most of all, how you take note of the environment you're playing on.
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by Chimto » Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:26 am

This is actually why I find it so hard to find a decent strategy game. Most RTS's simply follow the Rock-Paper-Scissors formula, and it sucks. Warcraft and Starcraft, for example. They're good, but they still rely on the Rock-Paper-Scissors formula for their games.

Seriously? Maybe you could argue 'Vultures can't do damage to Dragoons', and indeed Starcraft's damage system seems to resemble a hard counter system, but intuitivity, player strategy, and micro all help round out key units in this argument. Ghosts, Vultures, and the like are the primary candidates of showing off that even if they can't directly fight certain units, giving hint to a rock paper scissors kind of gameplay, they can, and will, fuck you up viciously when used correctly. The way Starcraft's control flows places the fates of units directly in your hands and not in the hands of pre-determined algorithms. Although Vultures may die to Dragoons in a fight, it may not necessarily end that way depending on what you choose to do with them. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but my failures are my own and not because the game restricted me.
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by Big Bad Bug » Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:53 pm

I think the RPS system should still be integrated, but with the variety JB brought up. At least the Goblins have these very powerful, smaller groups of more expensive pikemen. They're drastically different than other Pikemen, and so are their cavalry due to the weaker stats but poisonous attacks. Mordor does this interestingly because they have no cavalry except maybe the Mumakil, but you're not going to have a lot of Mumakil early. You have to take advantage of fast units like Corsairs or trample units like Trolls to take out archers, and there's fundamentally the same idea of using speedy units to make it to the ranged units before they get sniped, but executed in a much more different way. That would keep the game balanced as well as adding a variety of different ways per faction to execute the same strategy using unique tactics.
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by Pepe » Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:21 am

Cress to Pepe for the pics
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by Juice Box » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:03 am

Big Bad Bug wrote:I think the RPS system should still be integrated, but with the variety JB brought up. At least the Goblins have these very powerful, smaller groups of more expensive pikemen. They're drastically different than other Pikemen, and so are their cavalry due to the weaker stats but poisonous attacks. Mordor does this interestingly because they have no cavalry except maybe the Mumakil, but you're not going to have a lot of Mumakil early. You have to take advantage of fast units like Corsairs or trample units like Trolls to take out archers, and there's fundamentally the same idea of using speedy units to make it to the ranged units before they get sniped, but executed in a much more different way. That would keep the game balanced as well as adding a variety of different ways per faction to execute the same strategy using unique tactics.


^^This. I actually really love Mordor because of the simple fact they don't have cavalry.

As I said, there's nothing wrong with the RPS system. I know it's a necessary integration for strategy games--it wouldn't make sense if pikemen and swordsmen had an equal chance against each other, right? And if cavalry and siege were just as good at destroying buildings?

My problem, though, is when it becomes the central thing you focus your strategies on, when it becomes clear you lose because you don't have pikemen and you're fighting cavalry and when it becomes clear you win because you have swordsmen against pike, stuff like that.
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by The Kingmaker » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:07 pm

Or, in the case of Gondor, never use swordsmen because your pikemen are the best in the game, spam any of your three excellent archers, et voila! An army that requires a Barrage to destroy.

Or you can just ignore all of those this>this>that and rush Saruman and Ballistas. Or Aragorn and Boromir. Those two together (in a 4K match) destroy. Set them at a lair each and then they'll be set to rush fortresses. Boromir can mass stun troops, Aragorn can heal both and Blade Master allows him to destroy anything. Elendil and Army of the Dead also clear out armies from around bases.

Or if you have the add-on (ROTK, which I don't have so I can't get Edain :/) you can get the still-bugged elf horse archers who have infinite trample damage. Thus meaning they can kill from afar with silverthorns, or just charge and lose like 3 people to pikes, yet kill entire battalions of pikes.
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by Big Bad Bug » Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:12 pm

I get what you mean. Pikemen are too good against cavalry, and archers are too good against melee infantry. I don't feel like the system is too powerful, though, because cavalry are as good against archers as archers are against pikemen, and pikemen are equally powerful against cavalry. The reason I think they're equal is that, even when they instantly kill most basic cavalry (excluding Rohirirj or upgraded horsemen) it's easy to dodge around them as long as you're good at managing space. Some places like the Grey Havens are just impossible to do any micromanagement in, but mostly, it's possible.

People like Aragorn? He's like a more expensive battering ram: Slow and only good against things with a lot of health. I definitely prefer Gandalf for anti-infantry and any other hero with Leadership to charge an army. Usually Theoden.

Why can't ballistae be upgraded? It would be cooler for them to get something that increased their range or something other than a damage boost like all of the other catapults get. Isengard doesn't have a lot that makes it stand out in my opinion other than Berserkers(and mines, but who uses mines?).
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by The Kingmaker » Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:19 pm

I always though explosive harpoons would be awesome, and perhaps adding to that a single volley load of explosive arrows for the crossbows, like the men of dale black arrows
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by Big Bad Bug » Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:23 pm

Have you ever tried a strategy using Demolishers/Battering Rams? Demolishers are obviously better because THEY'RE THE ONLY BATTERING RAMS IN THE GAME THAT ARE UPGRADEABLE AND HAVE ABILITIES BECAUSE EVERY RACE BUT DWARVES IS STANK but Isengard and Mordor Rams work, too. They're actually pretty powerful if used right. Training pikemen and some archers to protect the ram is essential, but once it's in the enemy base, it does surprisingly well at tearing everything down.
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by The Kingmaker » Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:38 pm

Yeah, sneaking five of those Rams down some back alley into the enemy base can win you the game.

I always like a hero/upgrade centric strategic, which is why I like elves and hate goblins.

I saw a video where awk (awkemacspjg is like the only other bfme 2 you tuber) had about five of them and his enemy saw them on the way to their base. "What are those?" They asked
Oh nothing. They then proceeded to kill the fortress in three hits :D

How would you stop a demolished either a)headed your way or b) at your fortress with its armour down?
I find anything with knockback is essential as it requires removal of the armour to get into position. Otherwise, cavalry to intercept it
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by Big Bad Bug » Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:46 pm

They have so much health and resistance. If I was playing as the Elves, I always get Elrond with Legolas or Thranduil depending on which heroes the race has (Dwarves require Thranduil to take down, other Elves or Gondor require Legolas) and if I has Thranduil, I have him use Thorn of Vengeance to take it out. With other races, I would probably send all of my current troops to attack it and hope that my Rebuild or Tainted Land is enough to keep the fortress from being torn down long enough to destroy it. I tend to build 1 or 2 arrow towers on every fortress, right next to my closest buildings, so they could deal some damage, I hope.

For Goblins, at least you could rush a custom hero. ;) Still, Gorkil and Shelob aren't that bad, especially since all it takes is getting Gorkil to lvl 3 with some good micromanagement (like sending him to kill high priority targets such as Cavalry or Trolls that grant more XP) and he somehow starts levelling up faster and can lead a good army. Like Aragorn, his level 10 skill is a game-changer. Shelob is cheaper and has an area attack, and even if her AI targets pikemen, that's why you build a ton of Goblin Archers.
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by Pepe » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:42 pm

thin oreos r gr8
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by Big Bad Bug » Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:38 pm

I got the game for PC (finally) in the mail, but it won't install. I get to the 4th disc, which is labeled "W3D.big" and it always stops at a certain percentage of completion, 65. I think my computer is out of space to store the game in. :?

I really wanted to use the Create A Hero feature and to play the game the way it was meant to be, but now I can't. :evil:
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Re: Lord of the Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II

by The Kingmaker » Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:44 pm

That's sad. Is it regular BFME 2 or ROTWK? Also when (it will, I'm sure) it installs, play to make sure everything is working and go out. Before going back in, go to "check for update" and give it ten minutes. Then you should have the latest update, which should even some things out, even if Glorfindel can't use 1 power on horse and cant use another on foot, but can mount/dismount when 1 is active anyway and Mirkwoods actually lose DPS when upgraded with Silverthorns.

CaH is a little underwhelming imo. Your hero always costs the same and the portrait isn't the hero you made in the creator menu. They 1-hit everything small by level 3 and just become completely and utterly OP at level 10.
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