Endless Mode: Hao2fix

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Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by Big Bad Bug » Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:52 pm

(Title inspired by Juice Box :mrgreen: )

I've been in support of the concept of having an Endless Mode since the beginning. If there was one thing that Kingdom Rush should have above anything else, it would have to be an infinite-enemy level or levels. Now that it's actually been done...

I don't like it.

This is because of 2 huge problems that hinder it:

1) Enemies constantly get stronger with each wave. This can get so ridiculously OP that enemies are invincible. Look at the stats of the Miniboss on wave 60:

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2) Spending options eventually run out. Once the map has been filled with towers and all upgrades, there's nothing the player can do to combat the increasingly powerful enemy hordes other than use gnome shop items, which are limited to the player's gems unless they hack. Look at the insanity that these levels can reach:

Image

You see, Endless Mode isn't actually endless, and that's what bothers me. It shouldn't be called Endless Mode becuase there's no possible way to play forever on this mode. Challenge Mode or Legendary Mode would be a better name, although I think the mode should just be changed.

Fortunately, the changes to Endless Mode that can fix it are simple:

1) Have a cap at which enemies can increase in power. This can be a huge cap, such as 10 times the original stats, as long as it stops somewhere for every enemy. That way, ridiculously unstoppable enemies won't appear, and the player knows they can find the perfect counter to each one, no matter what.

2) Allow the player to buy unlimited bonuses in-game to enable uses for gold at all times. There are so many things that can be used for this, and they'll help keep things interesting even after the cap is reached. Level-specific towers could be in useful places in the level, with insanely expensive upgrades with incredible, balanced power. The tower can have a 3rd upgrade slot that can be bought again and again, as a special move similar to the cannons in Buccaneer's Den, which are also powerful and hopefully epic. A 3rd spell that has to be payed to use would also be very cool to have, especially if it required huge gold quantities but was a mass-killing machine, as well.

Either one of these options can be implemented into the game, but I'd prefer a combination of both, where enemies can reach a certain round number of stats, but the growing numbers of units cna be balanced out by buying unlimited powerups/attacks to deal insane damage.

Please, please, PLEASE pay attention to this, Ironhide, and use these to fix Endless Mode, because it's so close to perfections already, and just needs these little tweaks. Using these additions would make the missions actually endless, deserving of the name, and it would show me that Ironhide is the best game developing company ever. :mrgreen:
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Re: Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by Finwer » Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:21 pm

The_Tats said is alright if we send him a PM with the link of an topic,since he doesn't need to look in all topics and stuff.
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Re: Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by Big Bad Bug » Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:14 pm

Finwer wrote:The_Tats said is alright if we send him a PM with the link of an topic,since he doesn't need to look in all topics and stuff.


Tanks for reminding me, Finwer. I'd forgotten about that. :)
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Re: Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by Finwer » Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:02 am

Big Bad Bug wrote:
Finwer wrote:The_Tats said is alright if we send him a PM with the link of an topic,since he doesn't need to look in all topics and stuff.


Tanks for reminding me, Finwer. I'd forgotten about that. :)

;)
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Re: Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by Big Bad Bug » Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:36 am

He told me 2 things:

1) The team would look at it on Friday
2) Stop playing video games; it's Christmas :lol:
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Re: Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by wailwail » Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:16 am

LOL.
I really like that. I've never had the chance to play Endless mode, mainly because I don't have a mobile phone. But according to what people say, we really need a cash sink!
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Re: Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by Krfan » Thu Dec 25, 2014 8:08 am

I see a problem with your suggestion, if enemies have a maximum health they could reach.. It's really possible that a player could find a way to not lose because his towers could counter all the maxed out enemies, even if enemies appear much more frequently(at which point the game could crash). Personally, I'm amazed you'be been able to max out all towers and reach wave 60. I always thought the devs' original intention was to make enemies stronger faster than you could build towers, so without gems it'd be impossible to max out all towers.
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Re: Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by tmn loveblue » Thu Dec 25, 2014 9:36 am

I believe that there is a cap on enemies' attack, for the Orge in KR it is 120-180. Not sure about HP, but I think it is capped too.
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Re: Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by xstargaming » Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:15 am

The only flaw in this suggestion is as KRFan stated, "It's really possible that a player could find a way to not lose because his towers could counter all the maxed out enemies, even if enemies appear much more frequently(at which point the game could crash)."

Alas, that remains a prominent issue... Endless becomes far more difficult to apply now that a barrier stands in the way. Perhaps they should continue to increase in power and size, but at a slower rate?
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Re: Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by Big Bad Bug » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:10 pm

I'm trying to make Endless become actually endless. You guys seem to be suggesting ways to make the player eventually lose no matter what, which is against my intentions.
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Re: Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by tmn loveblue » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:15 pm

I suggest pre-programming the opening of extra paths for up to 200 waves, and probably an expansion of map once every while. And a Pause button, too.
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Re: Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by Big Bad Bug » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:17 pm

tmn loveblue wrote:I suggest pre-programming the opening of extra paths for up to 200 waves, and probably an expansion of map once every while. And a Pause button, too.


Did you get that from my Endless idea in FanFiction? 8-)
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Re: Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by tmn loveblue » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:20 pm

Did I suggest that? 8-)
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Re: Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by Juice Box » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:42 pm

Completely agree with everything.

My shortest and stoutest fingers are pointed toward the sky as a sign of approval. I think that's called a thumbs-up, but I don't understand you humans very well, so there.
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Re: Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by Kannon » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:51 am

Very good point. Endless modes currently are not endless. Maybe offer the option to sell towers wih higher returns, offer extra hero after x waves, offer additional set of reinforcements...
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Re: Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by tmn loveblue » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:38 am

Kannon wrote:Very good point. Endless modes currently are not endless. Maybe offer the option to sell towers with higher returns, offer extra hero after x waves, offer additional set of reinforcements...

I like your suggestion for an increased price in selling towers, Kannon. Maybe if a tower has been standing for an extended period of time, the percentage of refunded money for selling would rise accordingly. This could work with the map expansion suggestion, to provide more Strategic Points to build on. More, we could reset the difficulty once every time the map expands, i.e, less and weaker enemies begin appearing on the new paths as they open up, and increase in health and number as the game keep progressing.

The extra heroes would be kind of OP, and confusing once the player gets 3 heroes or more, but the additional reinforcements is a good idea. In Endless only, maybe the number of Reinforcements spawned at once can increase after a certain number of waves, i.e. 3 after 20 waves, 4 after 50 waves, 5 after 90 waves, etc. Moreover, the maximum health of your units would also rise at roughly the same rate as enemies, albeit with an upper cap. This way, while it would be more rewarding to build more Barracks, as the soldiers in KRO all deal very decent damage, comparable to towers, but doing so risks that if soldiers begin to fall, you lose fire power and block power simultaneously, which does not happen to a tower-heavy defense. In this terms, the abilities of towers could increase in quality, too, and maybe also price as the game progresses, requiring one to buy upgrades as early as possible, which necessitate good tactical planning since early specialized defense risks penetration by intelligently sent swarms by the AI.

All of this, including the above suggestion to make Endless easier and more "endless" could all fall into a difficulty setting special to the Endless Stage alone, the "Endless" difficulty setting, noted:

"Play an endless match against the mighty army of [insert boss name], where your force gains power as the stage unfolds. Beware, endless traps await uncertain and unfortunate players."
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Re: Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by Big Bad Bug » Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:45 am

That would really make barracks more useful, but it would then even out the stat growth of enemies, meaning that soldiers and enemies both get equally more powerful, leaving towers behind in the dust. And, if towers were to be buffed as well, what's the point of even making units stronger at all?
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Re: Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by tmn loveblue » Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:57 am

I think about rebalancing the growth rate of your units, towers and enemy units, maybe your units grow slower, making enemies slowly becoming more powerful. Also, gold count for each kill can decrease, so the number of enemies can increase.
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Re: Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by Big Bad Bug » Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:00 am

tmn loveblue wrote:I think about rebalancing the growth rate of your units, towers and enemy units, maybe your units grow slower, making enemies slowly becoming more powerful. Also, gold count for each kill can decrease, so the number of enemies can increase.


In that case, why not just decrease the power growth of enemies rather than increasing the power of towers and troops less?
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Re: Endless Mode: Hao2fix

by tmn loveblue » Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:04 am

Either way is fine :) Larger numbers mean game is more likely to crash, but provide more ground for variety.
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