Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

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Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

by Kicksave » Sun May 03, 2015 10:22 pm

Here's an idea inspired by the old Tetris and Dr. Mario versus modes where players raced side by side to complete their puzzles faster than the other.

Basically two (or more) players would compete the same level with identical waves. First player to finish without dying wins. For Endless Mode it'd be first player to level 40. (Or pick a goal--every option can be toggled, from difficulty, to towers/heros allowed, to starting gold, to unique play modes).

It'd be adrenaline filled. Players would have to balance the urgency of calling waves as soon as possible with the higher risk of death. 8-)

It could be highly interactive. Players could occasionally choose to pay the gold cost of a particular enemy unit and send it into their opponent's waves to overwhelm their defenses...introducing yet another element of risk and reward (if your opponent holds it off, you're behind from a gold standpoint).

I think you'd want a toggle button so you could see your opponent's screen and tower set up, although iPad or PC versions could probably show both side by side.
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Re: Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

by Zonoro13 » Sun May 03, 2015 10:26 pm

I think the first idea, racing to finish, isn't good. On almost every stage I call all waves as soon as they appear, so the whole thing would be a contest of tapping speed. The second idea has been suggested before, but is good.
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Re: Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

by Kicksave » Sun May 03, 2015 10:40 pm

Zonoro13 wrote:On almost every stage I call all waves as soon as they appear, so the whole thing would be a contest of tapping speed.


Not at all. On Rotten Forest, Pandemonium, or Bittering Rancor Iron Veteran you really call waves as soon as they appear? Maybe the first few you could get away with, but you wouldn't survive latter harder waves--they are challenging enough without calling subsequent ones waves early. Of course, in the Vs. mode, we'd let players call waves even earlier (as soon as they want) if they think they can handle it. That's the risk vs. reward balance. Any fool who calls all waves immediately on a Veteran stage (especially when his opponent can send in additional enemies) loses instantly.
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Re: Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

by Zonoro13 » Sun May 03, 2015 11:24 pm

I see what you mean. However, I still think that the "race" concept and the "sending enemies at your opponent" idea should stay separate. The second option could be implemented in a BTD Battles type setting, but it wouldn't mesh well with the first.
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Re: Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

by Big Bad Bug » Mon May 04, 2015 1:25 am

Kicksave wrote:
Zonoro13 wrote:On almost every stage I call all waves as soon as they appear, so the whole thing would be a contest of tapping speed.


Not at all. On Rotten Forest, Pandemonium, or Bittering Rancor Iron Veteran you really call waves as soon as they appear? Maybe the first few you could get away with, but you wouldn't survive latter harder waves--they are challenging enough without calling subsequent ones waves early. Of course, in the Vs. mode, we'd let players call waves even earlier (as soon as they want) if they think they can handle it. That's the risk vs. reward balance. Any fool who calls all waves immediately on a Veteran stage (especially when his opponent can send in additional enemies) loses instantly.


What? I've beaten all of the levels calling the waves immediately, at least on normal difficulty. The only exceptions for levels I've done on Veteran being Duredhel Outskirts and Pandaemonium, along with some Heroic and Iron challenges, but that's mostly because I just don't play them much. I'd like it if the race was more about thinking in the now for PVP rather than the normal memorization of the campaign levels, such as players having, like you've suggested, the ability to send enemies to the opponent, and as Kevin has thought of, using special spells to buff the opponent's enemies or debuff his/her defences.
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Re: Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

by Juice Box » Mon May 04, 2015 10:57 am

Kicksave wrote:
Zonoro13 wrote:On almost every stage I call all waves as soon as they appear, so the whole thing would be a contest of tapping speed.


Not at all. On Rotten Forest, Pandemonium, or Bittering Rancor Iron Veteran you really call waves as soon as they appear? Maybe the first few you could get away with, but you wouldn't survive latter harder waves--they are challenging enough without calling subsequent ones waves early. Of course, in the Vs. mode, we'd let players call waves even earlier (as soon as they want) if they think they can handle it. That's the risk vs. reward balance. Any fool who calls all waves immediately on a Veteran stage (especially when his opponent can send in additional enemies) loses instantly.


Umm, no.

I've beaten all levels on all three games on Veteran, and by calling all waves as soon as they appear. No gnome shop items, either. I'm sure BBB and other people in these Forums have done the same.
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Re: Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

by blu3 » Tue May 05, 2015 1:46 am

humble brag much :lol:
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Re: Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

by Big Bad Bug » Tue May 05, 2015 1:54 am

blu3 wrote:humble brag much :lol:


:lol: :lol: :lol:

What, haven't you done the same? ;)
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Re: Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

by blu3 » Tue May 05, 2015 1:59 am

pshhhhh...maybe.. :veznan:
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Re: Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

by Kicksave » Sat May 09, 2015 8:59 pm

I think you guys might be missing the mechanic I am describing. I am suggesting that you can call a wave as early as you want to (not just wait for the timer to appear).

That means you can theoretically call all 15 waves at once if you think you're good enough.

This is the balance between competitiveness (the urgency to complete all the waves before your competitor) and survival (you'll die if you call more than you can handle). Also, this is keeping in mind your competitor can send a few troops into your waves (at a cost to them) if they think you're overstretched.
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Re: Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

by The Kingmaker » Sat May 09, 2015 9:08 pm

That is interesting, especially in earlier waves with a hero like Phoenix that clears them single handedly. Could you call all of the Gray Ravens at once?

Also what would happen to cool downs, would they stack? Could I have 3 consecutive thunderbolts? How much damage could I deal with a Thunderbolt on an exit.
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Re: Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

by blu3 » Sat May 09, 2015 10:03 pm

if you called all 15 waves at once it would probably crash your game
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Re: Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

by Big Bad Bug » Sat May 09, 2015 11:01 pm

Here's a couple of other problems with your suggestion since you're still going at it:

  1. Even if you could call all of the waves early, once a player discovers an effective way of completing the level with all of the waves instantly called, they can simply beat that level again and again the same way each time with no competition at all.
  2. Having a comparative view allows players to copy each other's strategies, making battles even more stale and spreading the strategy to everyone else, so that there isn't anything unique amongst players in terms of strategy, the entire genre of the game.
  3. Premium heroes and Gnome Shop items would isolate players from each other in the worst way possible, making each and every match trivial.

Of course, Endless Mode couldn't be played the same way each time to get the same results, but there can still be similar effects for using the same strategy if it's really good. Topping this off, #3 would still be a big problem and impossible to fix when it comes to Gnome Shop unless they're disabled during that time, which would in turn make Ironhide look like cheapskates for having the gem system when it can't be used in multiplayer. Sorry, but it wouldn't really work this way.
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Re: Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

by Kicksave » Sun May 10, 2015 10:06 pm

I just wanted to clarify my idea since people here tend to want to knock down other people's ideas first for relatively minor reasons without understanding them first.

The waves misconception was the most obvious example...obviously the design would need to allow them to be called as soon as possible because it drives the entire mechanic of the "race". Now, to address your specific criticisms:

1. You'd have to have introduce a degree of randomness or differences in the strategic sites, enemy waves, or starting conditions. Definitely doable.
2. Do players in Tetris or Dr. Mario copy each others' placements? No, too hectic. Has Clash of Clans devolved to the point where everyone uses identical layouts? Negative. If you're calling 3 waves at a time, you have better things to do than react and copy to your opponent's layout. Won't happen if #1 is done well.
3. This is what I'm talking about....a non-issue that is easily addressed. As mentioned, all options are toggle-able (just like every VS. game ever made). Just set it to no Gnome items, or a max expenditure of 1000 gems. Restrict it to heroes both players own. Or choose not to, and allow the haves and the have-nots to fight it out just like every other Freemium game in existence.

BTW, I'm not beholden to this particular idea at all. It may be non-viable for a great number of reasons, seriously. But would be nice if people on this and other topics I've lurked would be open minded and constructive vs. other way around. It is a Suggestions forum after all!
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Re: Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

by Big Bad Bug » Sun May 10, 2015 11:00 pm

Just because I don't like the idea doesn't mean that I'm not open-minded or constructive. I honestly don't feel like this implementation is right for the KR series, unless there was more to it. If there was to be multiplayer, I'd want Kevin's version more than anything, and so far this idea has yet to top it. Not that it's a stupid idea in any way, but those 3 points are still fallacious, and I think you may have ignored the bottom paragraph of my post, because I explained why the ideas still don't work:

I wrote:Of course, Endless Mode couldn't be played the same way each time to get the same results, but there can still be similar effects for using the same strategy if it's really good. Topping this off, #3 would still be a big problem and impossible to fix when it comes to Gnome Shop unless they're disabled during that time, which would in turn make Ironhide look like cheapskates for having the gem system when it can't be used in multiplayer. Sorry, but it wouldn't really work this way.


Randomness in the game needs some basis of logic to make it strategic, but the strategy is abusable. However, not making it strategic will ruin the competition as it becomes a game of luck in which nobody is a real winner. It's inherently flawed, and it's not that people are trying to turn down ideas for no reason; we want to see things in the game that are of the high quality that we expect of Ironhide at this point.
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Re: Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

by Kicksave » Mon May 11, 2015 12:36 am

I just looked at Kevin's idea...honestly I did not know it existed. In essence, the vs. battle mode is the exact same idea as this one albeit 1000x more refined (the battle spells offer more interaction than just the enemy spawn spells I proposed). He even has the same screen toggle idea. All of your criticisms could apply there as well.

He just posted a sandbox idea just a few minutes ago on how to randomize the levels a bit, which basically was what I was talking about in #1. Again he's way ahead in that he's actually come up with the mechanic (vs. just the idea).

That is why I found your remarks non helpful. Yes, my idea is nowhere as developed because I haven't spent weeks on it and didn't know his existed...but you jumped on it anyways when it is almost the same core concept. Could have just linked me to his post and told me that someone was way ahead of me. Then I'd just offer up ideas in that topic.
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Re: Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

by Big Bad Bug » Mon May 11, 2015 1:47 am

Kicksave wrote:I just looked at Kevin's idea...honestly I did not know it existed. In essence, the vs. battle mode is the exact same idea as this one albeit 1000x more refined (the battle spells offer more interaction than just the enemy spawn spells I proposed). He even has the same screen toggle idea. All of your criticisms could apply there as well.

He just posted a sandbox idea just a few minutes ago on how to randomize the levels a bit, which basically was what I was talking about in #1. Again he's way ahead in that he's actually come up with the mechanic (vs. just the idea).

That is why I found your remarks non helpful. Yes, my idea is nowhere as developed because I haven't spent weeks on it and didn't know his existed...but you jumped on it anyways when it is almost the same core concept. Could have just linked me to his post and told me that someone was way ahead of me. Then I'd just offer up ideas in that topic.


I figured you knew since you mentioned having lurked the forums already. :roll:
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Re: Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

by blu3 » Mon May 11, 2015 5:01 am

i would also like to add that yes, people actually do copy other peoples bases in clash of clans
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Re: Vs. mode (side-by-side race mode)

by Kicksave » Mon May 11, 2015 6:49 am

Big Bad Bug wrote:I figured you knew since you mentioned having lurked the forums already. :roll:


Unfortunately, I didn't. The title of his idea was Challenge Editor or something. Which made me think it was just a suggestion for a generic level editor (yawn), so I ignored it. Reading into it earlier today, what makes it special is the inclusion of VS. modes and multiplayer interaction which I wouldn't have suspected from the title.

That's all I really want. Two+ players competing on the same map (with some unplanned elements per the randomizer he just suggested, like different tower locations) and the ability to interact (mess) with each other via enemies and spells. It's Dr. Mario on steroids. I'm happy to go build on this idea there versus standing this topic up separately. 8-)
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