Brexit

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Re: Brexit

by AerisDraco » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:55 pm

Oh, thank goodness.
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Re: Brexit

by xstargaming » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:39 am

For those of you not interesting in reading the following paragraphs, here's a summary of my thoughts in a click-bait style headline: Is representative democracy really worth the hype? One seventeen year-old kid shares his thoughts. Click here to take you somewhere that has nothing to do with his ideas!

Ah, how interesting a discussion! As I see it, the problem with the system of democracy involves the nature of voting, certainly, but rather than the assignment of that right to specific groups or to everyone is irrelevant; in the end, the elected official will be the one making the decisions where it truly matters. That is the issue: representation. A system cannot truly represent its people without each person contributing his or her own thoughts on any particular topic. Now, of course, given that, you'll run into a few issues: how do you account for the opinions of every person? How can you guarantee their input? How should each person be expected to vote on each topic brought to attention? Of the first of these, we run into the obvious solution: representation. Therein, however, you are no longer guaranteed your unique input (since the majority opinion becomes further diluted by the elected individual the more representatives exist in the hierarchy). Perhaps, then, virtual voting should be made an option: you can apply your individuality through input by a digital means, thereby acquiring the perspectives of all persons in the country. But what if they decide not to vote? If the conscious decision is made to abstain from voting, then it is simply a matter of them not having a right to complain if the outcome is not what he or she wanted. Wait a minute: thousands of topics are discussed throughout the year, how on Earth can everyone be expected to vote on all of them? This is the most serious concern (and perhaps the only major reason why a direct democracy would be difficult to implement in this age), but it can be addressed: (1) perhaps it should be left to individual to vote on that which they have the time and the desire to do so, (2) perhaps the nature of voting should be reduced to a simple question that can be easily answered through the aforementioned digital voting system thereby eliminating the time taken to vote, or (3) perhaps the number of matters discussed should be minimized for those voting.

Why is this important anyhow?

Zonoro wrote:It is unfair to have a government rule over people who do not have a say in that government. Democracy has been the backbone of civilization since ancient Greece. It is the only system that works well while remaining fair to its people.


Democracy was indeed the backbone of ancient Greece -- direct democracy that is. Representation means that the government indeed does rule over people who don't have a say in government; they offered their opinions for someone who has similar opinions, not on the debated topic itself, so you've only placed your trust in having that person vote somewhat like you do. But when that comes to particular issues, it may be that the majority representative for that majority does not do so. Ergo, you introduce redundancy; if there are enough representatives, we presume all primary opinions can be accounted for. But that's not necessarily true. For example: I agree with Senator Muffinman that we should refine the tax code regarding cupcakes, but I disagree that we should limit how many different types of cupcakes are sold in stores. Nevertheless, I voted for him, since he was the only available candidate with a somewhat similar opinion to my own.

It might be best to regard this in a different context: A man has six papayas to give to a fellow friend of mine who I trust to sell them at the price I want, so I give them and send him off to market. Along the way, he finds another person who he trusts with the six papayas (also believing that they will be sold fairly) and transfers them to him. Now, this man reaches the market and has to haggle with the store to get these papayas properly sold, but in the nature of compromise (and what he thinks is proper) he sells them at, say, 67 cents a papaya. He returns the money to the other person who returns it to the original. He, however, is not satisfied; he wanted at least 70 cents a papaya, and though he got something close, it wasn't quite what he desired.

This isn't a rant against representative democracy and the nature of the voting system, since, at present, it is the most viable option on a large-scale, but simply a consideration of a better alternative which may be possible with the heightening of communications technology. The nature of politics is ever-evolving -- and to the best of my ability I try to stay uninvolved since most of the popular representatives do not share my opinions -- but perhaps the best solution is the most apparent one. Or perhaps I'm wrong entirely; that's up for you to decide. :)
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Re: Brexit

by Juice Box » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:49 am

Zonoro13 wrote:
Juice Box wrote:Yes, voting eligibility should be removed from people who "think wrong."

kek

Juice Box wrote:Simple peasantries like "basic human rights" and "the freedom to vote" should be altered, or even outright ignored, against something of such importance.

holy fucking shit you can't make this up


Mm, yes, thank you for the quality reply. Have fun giving votes to your dumbasses and bigots. Who cares if want either Trump the dumb businessman or Cuntface the evil psychopath as your president? So long as it is your free right as an American citizen, after all, reasoning be damned.

Manijure wrote:This is literally how democracy works. If you limit voting to a minority, a country cannot find the best solution for the most people because regardless of the fact that the minority is "well informed" as you say, they cannot and will not represent the people of the country as a whole. The thing you need to understand is that individuality is a core part of humanity; we each have our own ideals and beliefs. Who gets to be the judge of deciding if someone is "informed" if everyone is different? You cannot make a political system where "uninformed" people are barred from voting because it is simply unfeasible and biased.

And regarding claims, politicians don't say what they will do, they say what they will TRY to do. I do not vote for a candidate because I know something in particular will happen under his/her administration, but because I believe he or she will do everything in his or her power to make it happen. That being said, in the eyes of the public, a claim about something in the past can either be true or false depending on what you believe in. Some claims can be solely based on facts, but anyone can twist it into something of opinion, such as by emphasizing the wording or phrase of the claim. It can be interpreted in many different ways, and as such, the public as a whole never sees a claim as wholly "true" or "false."


Then why don't we remove politicians entirely and just give the people freedom to choose for themselves regarding political matters? Because following your logic, a politician can't possibly uphold the ideals and beliefs of everyone in a population: he can only represent it. So why not just let everyone decide everything, right? To get votes that represent everyone's opinions on important matters?

It isn't so much about whether you have "ideals" and "beliefs," it's more about whether your ideals and beliefs are of valid reasoning. And even you have to admit that you can't stop cases like bigotry and sexism and racism extending itself to voting. Who cares if everyone has ideals and beliefs, man? Because if some people have ideals as fallacious as religious bigotry, then you're giving thousands of idiots out there voting power, and to uphold what? The "basic human right" that all citizens should have "the freedom to vote?"

To be honest, I think it's more an issue with the general public: if you have a population that is well-educated, literate, and has easy access to information regarding everything about their country's political issues, then minimizing the threat of unsound voting becomes much easier. Well-off countries can certainly allow its citizens to vote, because misinformation becomes a negligible threat. But if you have a country like mine, where half its money goes to 0.5% of the population, majority have never even used the Internet, and voting is all about who can speak best, then there isn't much use denying: a population like that would be better off having a group of people who know what they're doing decide everything for them. And yeah, it's spitting on concepts like individuality, but damn shit if you think I'm letting you vote when you don't even know who your candidates are. People have ideals and beliefs? Freedom to choose? Basic rights and individuality? That's great, cool, cool, but people also have the power to discern: to weigh what they deem in their opinion is right and wrong, based on real facts and concrete evidence, free of misinformation and logical fallacies. If someone fails to uphold that basic right, then a country should not bother trying to uphold his others.
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Re: Brexit

by Zonoro13 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:36 am

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Re: Brexit

by The Kingmaker » Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:15 am

Fuck. Fuck. Fuck. Cunt. Fuck.
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Re: Brexit

by FastAndBlast » Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:46 am

*insert heavy swearing*
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Re: Brexit

by warbot1000 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:06 am

Whelp. This sucks. EDIT: This could suck.
RIP the UK. Scotlands probably going to have another referendum like they said they would.

my ideas
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Re: Brexit

by Chimto » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:56 am

Looks like the Scottish and Irish nationalists are already bringing up secession.

Hope Farage & co realise they may have destroyed two unions this week.
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Re: Brexit

by Manijure » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:24 am

This is not the news I wanted to wake up to. This will not turn out well, but my fingers are crossed that the worst-case economic scenario will not come to pass.

Stay strong, Great Britain.
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Re: Brexit

by xstargaming » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:36 am

I fear for what may come of this. Let's hope that ruin is not the finality of it all.
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Re: Brexit

by Juice Box » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:41 am

S'A GOOD THING I'M NOT TECHNICALLY BRITISH ANYMORE :b
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Re: Brexit

by The Kingmaker » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:48 am

I was already considering going to Denmark or the Netherlands for university because I'm not a big fan of bein in debt, but now...
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Re: Brexit

by AerisDraco » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:59 am

RIP UK
Scotland, secede now and join the EU, if you know what's good for you.
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Re: Brexit

by warbot1000 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:34 pm

AerisDraco wrote:RIP UK
Scotland, secede now and join the EU, if you know what's good for you.

They said they would probably leave if the decision to leave the EU was made.

my ideas
http://www.ironhidegames.com/forums/vie ... =15&t=4760
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Re: Brexit

by Manijure » Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:55 am

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... ?tid=sm_fb

I think the URL says it all. Well done, Great Britain. Google would be proud of you.
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Re: Brexit

by warbot1000 » Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:35 am

Manijure wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/?tid=sm_fb

I think the URL says it all. Well done, Great Britain. Google would be proud of you.

This is why I don't trust the general population. The fact that me and my friends at school knew a lot more about the EU and the implications of leaving and staying and did not get a chance to vote even though this change will undoubtedly affect us the most is dumb. I can say for a fact (there was a poll in my school) that 92% of people in it would have voted to stay (roughly 2000 votes in the school) The fact that 75% of voters who were under 24 voted remain would probably be reflected in the younger population as a whole as well and caused the UK to remain. This is frustrating and I know zorono will probably say I should just accept the change or something like that but I want a revote where the younger population are allowed to vote.

my ideas
http://www.ironhidegames.com/forums/vie ... =15&t=4760
I am master of the elements, student of goku and digimon king
My friends an I fight for good beware of warbot the humanrobot!!

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Re: Brexit

by Zonoro13 » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:50 pm

warbot1000 wrote:
Manijure wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/?tid=sm_fb

I think the URL says it all. Well done, Great Britain. Google would be proud of you.

This is why I don't trust the general population. The fact that me and my friends at school knew a lot more about the EU and the implications of leaving and staying and did not get a chance to vote even though this change will undoubtedly affect us the most is dumb. I can say for a fact (there was a poll in my school) that 92% of people in it would have voted to stay (roughly 2000 votes in the school) The fact that 75% of voters who were under 24 voted remain would probably be reflected in the younger population as a whole as well and caused the UK to remain. This is frustrating and I know zorono will probably say I should just accept the change or something like that but I want a revote where the younger population are allowed to vote.

Although it's not really fair that teenagers will be affected by this decision and couldn't vote on it, there is a reason people under 18 can't vote.

It's also not necessarily true that the youth are more well-informed. Your friends at school obviously were, but I suspect that's a result of coming from more educated families and going to a good school.

I think it's wrong to assume that it was people who voted leave that were googling the EU. I'm sure it was people who voted leave, people who voted remain, and people who didn't vote all contributing to that trend.
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Re: Brexit

by warbot1000 » Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:16 pm

Zonoro13 wrote:Although it's not really fair that teenagers will be affected by this decision and couldn't vote on it, there is a reason people under 18 can't vote.

It's also not necessarily true that the youth are more well-informed. Your friends at school obviously were, but I suspect that's a result of coming from more educated families and going to a good school.

I think it's wrong to assume that it was people who voted leave that were googling the EU. I'm sure it was people who voted leave, people who voted remain, and people who didn't vote all contributing to that trend.

I think the comment about googling is true in some aspect however my school and the other top 10 schools in the UK did a poll and got a 72% remain vote. We got sent the results by my school and the eform for the petition to get a revote with younger people. 75% of under 24s voted remain and this would probably have made the difference between leave and remain if 16 and 17 year olds were allowed to vote. While there are lots of uninformed youths in England the Scottish referendum shows us that if we are allowed to vote we invest time in researching and deciding what we want for the country. This is probably due to the fact that we are allowed to vote and for people my age it is a big thing and lots of adults take this right for granted. Due to that and the fact that people who don't inform themselves probably wont vote or if they do they will go with the crowd. This probably would have completely changed the result.

my ideas
http://www.ironhidegames.com/forums/vie ... =15&t=4760
I am master of the elements, student of goku and digimon king
My friends an I fight for good beware of warbot the humanrobot!!

If its not JB its not right!
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Re: Brexit

by Juice Box » Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:11 pm

Regardless of which side searched up what, it's clear that this is proof of how a general population is unfit to vote on important political matters. It would have been great if people searched that BEFORE voting, but AFTER? When everything is done and nothing about it can be changed anymore? It's horribly pathetic that people voted on something most of them knew little about, not even the consequences it'll bring. It only furthers my point that a country should be run by a licensed minority, since apparently even a well-off country with abundant resources like Britain can't be asked to do something as simple as care enough about political matters.
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Re: Brexit

by Ashbite » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:17 pm

The Kingmaker wrote:I was already considering going to Denmark or the Netherlands for university because I'm not a big fan of bein in debt, but now...

RIP EU students who wanted to study in the UK as well
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