KR Crossover

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KR Crossover

by filosofem » Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:19 pm

Before Origins came out, I was thinking how cool it would be to play Kingdom Rush levels with Frontiers towers and Frontiers levels with Kingdom Rush towers.

It requires no new levels but would give 2 totally new long-lasting epic adventures.
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Re: KR Crossover

by Big Bad Bug » Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:43 pm

This idea has been argued over constantly in the past. Unfortunately, balancing would be hopelessly destroyed with towers crossed over, since heroes, enemies, and the level's design would all be factors.
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Re: KR Crossover

by Finwer » Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:46 pm

I know it's offtopic but BBB Razor made that awesome avatar for you,didn't he?
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Re: KR Crossover

by Big Bad Bug » Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:16 pm

Finwer wrote:I know it's offtopic but BBB Razor made that awesome avatar for you,didn't he?


Yep, who else? :mrgreen:

Shadownight's avatar is still awesome, though. I won't forget that one. ;)
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Re: KR Crossover

by Juice Box » Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:36 am

Dang it, now I want a new avvie.

RAZOOOOOOOOOOOOR.

Anyways, why, exactly, would balancing be a problem? I mean, I'm not arguing, I just don't really see how. Could you give examples or something?
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Re: KR Crossover

by Big Bad Bug » Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:45 am

Tesla. Do I need anymore evidence?
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Re: KR Crossover

by Magnus0 » Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:27 pm

KRF towers have usually better stats than KR towers. Look at the archmage and arcane tower for example. The arcane tower would be hopelessly UP if you can use an archmage.
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Re: KR Crossover

by Big Bad Bug » Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:55 pm

Magnus Swiftwind wrote:KRF towers have usually better stats than KR towers. Look at the archmage and arcane tower for example. The arcane tower would be hopelessly UP if you can use an archmage.


Enemies are different in both games. Compare Goblins to Desert Thugs and Orcs to Dune Raiders. Arcane Wizard would be so much better in Frontiers because it could instakill Bloodshells and even Bluegales, negating the immunity completely. Paladins are far better than Templars and Assassins for their healing, allowing them to stack with the star upgrades to passively heal and be even more invincible against so many enemies.

In KR, the Totem of Weakness would counter the weakness of barracks against enemies in the Rotten missions to avoid so many spawns from the pool. The DWAARP would also be OP against them as it does fire damage and has an instakill to counter the Swamp Things. Arcane Wizards would wreck bosses and Necromancers fire fast enough to keep enemies slowed indefinitely. Speaking of slowing, the Battle Mecha would destroy all kinds of enemies in KR.
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Re: KR Crossover

by Juice Box » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:08 am

Umm, those don't look like issues.

I mean, I don't see a need to fix any of those things. Totem of Weakness, DWAARP, Iuno, but I'm not convinced.
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Re: KR Crossover

by Big Bad Bug » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:52 pm

The developers spent a lot of time balancing the game so that each tower and its abilities would work for specific scenarios. They weren't entirely successful, as the Tesla can replace towers in almost any situation, but they're close enough. I notice that certain tower abilities are timed perfectly in many stages, such as Sniper Shot in Hak'raj Plateau and Death Ray in Ruins of Acaroth, but only if they are placed in the right spots. The game wouldn't have the same closeness to perfection that it does with new towers.
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Re: KR Crossover

by Juice Box » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:57 am

Umm... Proof?

I mean, I don't see how the Death Ray is any better than, say, Crimson Sentence. Vice versa. And I don't see how the Rangers' Poison Arrows is more tactically useful than the Crossbows' Barrage.
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Re: KR Crossover

by Big Bad Bug » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:31 pm

Juice Box wrote:Umm... Proof?


Play the game, and pay attention closely to how some towers use their skills. Building them at the right time seems to allow them to time their skills almost perfectly.

I mean, I don't see how the Death Ray is any better than, say, Crimson Sentence. Vice versa. And I don't see how the Rangers' Poison Arrows is more tactically useful than the Crossbows' Barrage.[/quote]

I thought we were talking about Frontiers and KR only. :? Even then, the differences are plentiful. Death Ray is far more reliable than Crimson Sentence, isn't influenced by enemy positioning, and is cheaper.

Poison Arrows are better against a spread of enemies and ignor armor, while Barrage can be used on a single target or multiple close targets for the same damage. Armor effects Barrage while Poison Arrows bypass it.

I can do this for every tower if you want.
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Re: KR Crossover

by Juice Box » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:14 pm

Yeah, okay, they have differences. So what? If the Rangers had Barrage and the Crossbows had Poison Arrows, gameplay wouldn't be drastically affected. Sure, you'd have to change around your strategies and stuff, but there otherwise wouldn't be much of a difference.

Just making sure, but what exactly are you trying to say? I can imagine Golden Longbows fighting Savages just fine without any difference in gameplay. Same thing for pretty much every other tower against every other enemy type. Unless you have a valid reason as to why they can't mix together, my stand will stay the same.
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Re: KR Crossover

by Big Bad Bug » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:32 pm

Changing your strategy around is a drastic difference. Tower Defence is a form of strategy. It alters the main focus of the game, before heroes were even a part of KR.

Weren't my other reasons valid? It messes up the balancing of the game beyond repair in so many ways. Heroes won't mesh well with the other towers, star upgrades will break the game, not to mention the different prices of towers and varying gold given for enemies, the enemies themselves woth the wafes they come in at specific times in specific places, etc.

There's too much stuff going on in the game for big vhanges like this. Even little changes have a big impact, which we see from heroes.
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Re: KR Crossover

by Juice Box » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:44 pm

Umm. Okay. Changing strategies is a drastic difference. Same thing with Heroes, and hey, Ironhide pulled that through.

Again, looking for valid points. So far, you've told me "it'll be unbalanced" because "enemy gold isn't the same" and "towers in KR are more powerful" but you've never shown me how.
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Re: KR Crossover

by Big Bad Bug » Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:28 am

1st of all, Ironhide did not pull through with heroes. They failed with them. It's harsh, but true. I've pleaded for heroes to be rebalanced constantly, and pretty much the entire forum has, as well. The devs saw the topic for it and couldn't even promise that they'd get around to it, and they're still messing up. Implementing these towers into the other games is the problem we have now times ten.

I need to show you? Why can't you tell already the difference? Some missions give so much gold that there is room for random spending, so long as you keep improving your defence enough to survive. Take the Rotten Forest for example. After a few Teslas and an Arcane Wizard, you're set so long as more is added. With Golden Longbows, so many of the big enemies showing up later would be instakilled and make the mission ridiculously trivial. Same goes for the Ruins of Acaroth and especially Glacial Heights, where the Breakers at the bottom would get decimated so easily with "CRIMSON SKIEEES" that you'd wonder if this was really Kingdom Rush that you were playing. Similarly, Teslas in Frontiers could take the place of the DWAARP and be so much more effective, harming flying and gound enemies alike in misisons like the Dark Descent and especially Dusk Chateau, making the beginning part with the bats that almost always get through become problemless, while benefiting from the buffs of all fo the other towers thrown into the mix.

I don't know whether all 24 tower types will be mixed together or just 8 from one of the games being brought to another game, but they'd still make some missons eas no matter what. Even with only Origins towers in KR, Arcane Archers would make Burning Torment a cakewalk, especially with Forest Keepers and the Wild Magus to counter Cerberus, not to mention how easy Legions would be with Timelapse. The more I think about it, the more imbalanced I see this whole idea to really be. :shock:
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Re: KR Crossover

by Juice Box » Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:18 pm

I made a big post and it got deleted (again) because of the stupid log-out thing, and I'm really quite pissed off, so please excuse my bluntness.

BBB wrote:After a few Teslas and an Arcane Wizard, you're set so long as more is added. With Golden Longbows, so many of the big enemies showing up later would be instakilled and make the mission ridiculously trivial. Same goes for the Ruins of Acaroth and especially Glacial Heights, where the Breakers at the bottom would get decimated so easily with "CRIMSON SKIEEES" that you'd wonder if this was really Kingdom Rush that you were playing.


No.

It's true that the Golden Longbows can remove the threat that the Forest Trolls pose. But they won't be able to take down weaker enemies with their low fire rate, which is what the level is mostly comprised of:

Orcs
Ogres
Goblins
Goblin Zappers
Orc Champions
Wulves
Worgs

BBB wrote:Similarly, Teslas in Frontiers could take the place of the DWAARP and be so much more effective, harming flying and gound enemies alike in misisons like the Dark Descent and especially Dusk Chateau, making the beginning part with the bats that almost always get through become problemless, while benefiting from the buffs of all fo the other towers thrown into the mix.


This is testimony not to the imbalance between towers. This is testimony to how OP the tesla is.

The tesla:
- Has a higher DPS than all towers in the game
- Is the cheapest tower to fully upgrade
- Can take down flyers better than archer towers
- Can take down hordes better than all artillery
- Nullifies the Arty-Barracks combo because all enemies in its vicinity get damaged
- Has an overall higher damage output than most mage towers
- Has a damage output that nullifies its low fire rate

BBB wrote:Arcane Archers would make Burning Torment a cakewalk


No.

Enemies would still have tons of magic resistance. Even basic mooks would still have a good amount of magic armor on them.

BBB wrote:especially with Forest Keepers and the Wild Magus to counter Cerberus


All mage towers can counter Cerberus:

The Arcanist can increase his damage output on him by putting him back down the path.
The Archmage and HEM have their sheer damage output.
The Necromancer and Sorcerer can stall Cerby for an extended period of time.

The Magus's advantage on the enemy would be that she gains damage overtime. The more exposure she has towards Cerby, the more of a beating she'll be able to give him.

Forest Keepers would also only be as effective as Paladins. Yes, Forest Keepers will deal a good amount of damage with their spears, but will be slaughtered once Cerby reaches them. Paladins, on the other hand, can't replicate the FK's damage output, but can atleast stall longer, allowing other towers more time to damage it.

BBB wrote:not to mention how easy Legions would be with Timelapse


Yes.

Obviously Timelapse has such a short cooldown that it can affect every single Demon Legion it encounters.



I'm mostly surprised you're saying that towers in one game would be OP in another. Based on the front you're putting up, that obviously isn't the case.

No, the main problem with this idea is that the player will be given too much tactical freedom. The wide variety of towers that he's capable of using will, firstly, remove KR's casual feel, since players will have to think harder about what to do. Remember that this game is supposed to be a no-brainer.

Secondly, it will allow for overpowered tower combinations, since the weaknesses of one tower can be nullified by the strength of another. For example, Forest Keepers and Paladins would wreak havoc if they worked well together: Crowds won't be a problem to them, thanks to Holy Strike and Eerie Gardener. Ranged enemies will be nullified, due to the Paladins' tankiness allowing the Keepers to deliver continuous damage to them. High-damage enemies won't be a problem, either, because of Holy Light and Circle of Life. Not even flyers will get away from them, because of the FK's ranged attacks.

Another example would be the Golden Longbow and the Rangers. The Longbows would take down any health sponge they encounter, and the Rangers would take down the basic mooks. Throw in the extra crits and range of the Crossbows and you'd have an even more lethal combination.

Now that I think, this idea really would be quite hard to implement. But you're giving me the wrong reasons for it.
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Re: KR Crossover

by Big Bad Bug » Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:33 am

My reasons aren't wrong, you're just being close-minded about them. Of course I'm not going to use only Golden Longbows to beat the Ruins of Acaroth, just like I wouldn't use only Arcane Wizards to beat the mission. They're perfect for one type of treat, but aren't the solution to the entirety of the mission.

The Tesla isn't OP, as I'm pretty Pandaemonium isn't possible without them. KR was balanced to make sure that each mission was hard without being too hard with the setup of towers, and the other games were made just like that, as well. However, the developers didn't keep in mind what the games would be like with the other towers in them. Neither of us should be assuming how easy or hard a level would be with towers from the other games, as there are too many factors to take into account.
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Re: KR Crossover

by Juice Box » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:32 am

Big Bad Bug wrote:My reasons aren't wrong, you're just being close-minded about them. Of course I'm not going to use only Golden Longbows to beat the Ruins of Acaroth, just like I wouldn't use only Arcane Wizards to beat the mission. They're perfect for one type of treat, but aren't the solution to the entirety of the mission.


Hnhh.

What I wrote:

I wrote:Secondly, it will allow for overpowered tower combinations,


So all this time we've both been right, the problem being your shitty way of explaining your side.

BBB wrote:The Tesla isn't OP,


Please try naming a tower that is cheaper to fully build than the Tesla.

Assuming you find one, please see if that tower can compete in terms of damage.

BBB wrote:Neither of us should be assuming how easy or hard a level would be with towers from the other games, as there are too many factors to take into account.


Hah, that's bull, and you and I both know it. A tower is still a tower, and it is completely possible to see which kinds of enemy hordes it would be effective against. This is even more reinforced by how predictable enemies can be, and how simple it is to take any of them down, despite all of their "perks." If you notice, the entirety of KR can be completed without a good strategy, no matter how hard the level is. Later on, with levels like Pandaemonium and Rotten Forest, you realize that this game is more of a game that asks to make sure you don't be stupid, have everything under control, and be good at periodic things, and release as much firepower as possible.

Those four are actually the key to winning any level in KR. Don't be stupid and build mainly artillery and barracks, because later on flyers and health sponges will show up. Don't be stupid and spam archer and mage towers, because eventually a powerful and fast enough horde will show up to wreck you. Release as much firepower as possible, fully upgrade your stars and get the most powerful heroes. Be good at periodic things, don't be a passive dumbnub who waits to use his reinforcements "at precisely the right moment," or saves his gold "for later waves."

With this in mind, how "OP" a specific tower is against a group of enemies doesn't matter all that much, since most of the towers are pretty OP on their own, anyway, with only a few like the Musketeer Garrison and Templar Order lagging behind. You can predict what'll happen in a specific situation when you have a specific defense, and most of the time you'll be successful. No matter how many factors there are to it, how many things you need to take into account to determine how easy or hard a level will be, it still boils down to those four things, and if you follow those four things, your defense will win no matter what's in it.
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Re: KR Crossover

by Big Bad Bug » Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:48 pm

Wow, what a pep talk that last part was. Sounds like a motivational speech right before some sports game or in a movie. :P

Tesla may be better than the archer towers and Big Bertha for damage output in an area, but mages are still necessary for killing those big enemies unless you have a bunch of Teslas or Oni to take them down. It's better than the other physical towers, but necessary to beating some missions. Nerfing it would make it unbalance the game and make it impossible, so technically, the Tesla isn't OP. ;)

Of course those 4 things are key to beating the game. That's how you play the game. You might as well tell me that I'll never beat Sonic unless I keep moving. It's true, but it's also painfully obvious. Of course I'm not going to be stupid, of course I'm not going to hoard gold and never use my spells. However, there's more depth to the game. Selecting the right towers for the job is key, and because the towers from other games aren't made for KR, and vice versa, it takes away that key component to the game. No matter how much I try to explan this, I feel like you're not getting the fact that the 8 towers for 1 game can't replace the 8 towers from another game.

Why are you insulting me? There's no need for that. I haven't been insulting you, or at least not trying to.
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