The Community improves heroes.

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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by Ninja » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:11 am

Oof_Shunt wrote:I would put numbers, but...I've added all my numbers together, and...the total...it's OVER 9000!

:o :o :o


Even if it was, which I know it's not, you should still add in the numbers. Others can help you balance them afterwords. ;)

If you still won't change it, then you're just lazy and I'd rather not read your adaptations at all, as I know that they'll be lacking vital information. ;)

@Aeris: Oh, I thought that you meant that she was specialized in literal backstabbing, like from the description of Lethal Strike in-game. :?
Last edited by Ninja on Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by AerisDraco » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:48 am

More so the "sneaky" part than the "backstabbing" part.
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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by Ninja » Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:45 am

I like this tower! :D But you should make it ignore 100% armor.
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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by Big Bad Bug » Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:05 am

This thread is turning really messy really fast, and I don't like it.

Also, I think you've ruined the Axethrowers, Aeris. Originally, they were a support tower because they created a chokepoint for massive damage to be dealt as well as protecting barracks from heavy damage and towers from the disabling spells of enemies.

Now, it has no totems, which were a cool part of their design. They are much, much weaker now, disabling just one enemy with Skullcrusher, and even then, there's only a chance for one of its barely-useful debuff a to happen. It's also extremely expensive. Compare it to Totem of Weakness, which had an AOE that continued to effect enemies by making them take an extra 40% damage from any attacks as well as halving their damage output. It was also 50 G cheaper with a faster cooldown. It was cooler, had a good role in the game, and was balanced.

Axe of Spirits is also extremely UP. It only silences for 3 seconds, and it costs 200 G just to reduce the cooldown by 1 second? Death Ray dealt infinite damage and for 200 G, you could reduce the cooldown by double the amount. This power is pathetic in comparison. I admit that Totem of Spirits hardly effected the right enemies, but that was just a fault in the targeting, which would be simply fixed by just having the skill target enemies with magic. This is unnecessary, like the new tower in general.
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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by The Kingmaker » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:48 am

I agree this is getting messy. Please can this be a place for heroes specifically
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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by AerisDraco » Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:06 pm

Okay, sorry...
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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by The Kingmaker » Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:13 pm

Well. Idk. Having another thread for towers would get muddled too.

Idk. Im no overlord here, you guys figure out what you guys want it do
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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by AerisDraco » Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:23 pm

I do think you should put the ideas under spoilers on the OP, once deemed completed, based on hero modified.
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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by Ninja » Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:31 pm

So, what do you guys think of Xin 2.0. He in my last post on the first page, as said in this comment:

I wrote:Attention, everyone! I've just updated my last post on the 1st page with my Xin adaptation.
(Sorry, I just couldn't resist having a place on the 1st page. :P)

Enjoy! :D
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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by AerisDraco » Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:45 pm

I still say he isn't a support hero.

I dunno. I think a Brewmaster Xin would be cool. (It's obvious Xin's inspirations are WoW's Pandarens and Kung Fu Panda)
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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by Big Bad Bug » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:48 pm

It really bugs me when skills have their cooldowns reduced as well as other effects as they're upgraded. It's always been that only the cooldown changes, and if it does, it is shown in the description. Otherwise, players won't know about it and it will seem like they're getting less benefit out of the skill.

Overall, I don't like his limitations on how many units he can buff. Most of the time, he'll just be with 2 pairs of reinforcements, rather than barracks, so it will always be just 1 too little for the skills to be as effective as they could be. His mixture of heals over time and buffs to strictly barrack units contradicts his teleport skill, which now deals magic damage like his normal attacks, which doesn't make any sense. Why is Xin magical all of a sudden? His teleport skill is mainly just to show his great speed and physical prowess, not any magical abilities. None of his other skills were magical, so it seems really out of place for him to get magic damage so suddenly. He's bad for different reasons than before, but because he deals more damage, I'd say that Xin 2.0 is neither better nor worse than the original.
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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by Oof_Shunt » Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:30 pm

Yea I prefer the unchanged Xin...but then I never had a problem with him to start with. I think stalling capabilities should be a thing if we should change things. I just feel like Catha has the advantage being able to summon up to 4 pixie warriors ya know.
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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by Ninja » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:14 pm

Big Bad Bug wrote:It really bugs me when skills have their cooldowns reduced as well as other effects as they're upgraded. It's always been that only the cooldown changes, and if it does, it is shown in the description. Otherwise, players won't know about it and it will seem like they're getting less benefit out of the skill.


What do you mean? The only skill in which the CD is upgraded is Quick Attack, and it does only upgrade the CD. ;)

And about it having to be in the description when the CD decreases, I thought that that part would be implied, but apparently I was wrong. So I added in that bit. Happy now? :)

Big Bad Bug wrote:Overall, I don't like his limitations on how many units he can buff. Most of the time, he'll just be with 2 pairs of reinforcements, rather than barracks, so it will always be just 1 too little for the skills to be as effective as they could be. His mixture of heals over time and buffs to strictly barrack units contradicts his teleport skill, which now deals magic damage like his normal attacks, which doesn't make any sense. Why is Xin magical all of a sudden? His teleport skill is mainly just to show his great speed and physical prowess, not any magical abilities. None of his other skills were magical, so it seems really out of place for him to get magic damage so suddenly. He's bad for different reasons than before, but because he deals more damage, I'd say that Xin 2.0 is neither better nor worse than the original.


That's the point, you aren't supposed to put him with two pairs of reinforcements. He must be with a barracks and only a barracks. No more, no less. That's the only way he'll function properly. How does the teleport skill contradict his focus on barracks support? No one said a support can't have any damaging skills. I can get rid of the magic damage if you really want me to, but the only reason I put it in is so that he can actually damage the enemy he attacks. More often than not, large enemies in KRO have high armor, thus rendering any physical attacks incapable of damaging them. So then, since the skill is targeting said enemies, he'll need to bypass armor to be effective. He already has magical damage on his basic attacks, so it's not really out of place for him to have magical abilities elsewhere. He's got to have some magical capabilities, right? Why would he have basic attack magic damage otherwise? Really, he's not even a little bit better? If anything, just that his skills are now more powerful and the fact that he deals more damage would at least fix his UPness, right?

P.S. I "fixed" my posting style. :)
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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by Big Bad Bug » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:50 pm

:yey: You've evolved, Ninja! :D

The cooldown rant was just something I wanted to give, and your hero reminded me of it. Because I had to leave soon, I posted it quickly without giving any context, so I apologize for the confusion. However, the critique of the cooldown upgrade not being mentioned in the description did apply at the time. :)

His teleport makes Xin mobile, while staying with barracks requires a more grounded playstyle. That is why the teleport is contradictory, not because it is a damage skill amongst support skills. ;)

What do you mean that his base attacks already have magic damage? This hero has magic damage on his base attacks, but not the original Xin. The point of these makeovers is to take the really cool aesthetic theme of the heroes and use them to create a great playstyle. By changing the theme through adding magic damage to his attacks and skills, you've ruined the whole point. You may as well just create a whole other hero, then. ;)

Yes, as I wrote, his increased damage makes him better, but the limitations on how many soldiers who he can buff reduces his capabilities as a support. Supports are inherently weaker than other types of heroes because it's easier to just kill enemies than to give others the opportunities to deal more damage. Because of this, he should have much stronger support skills or a balance of support and damage, which I think was the original intention with Pandamonium, Panda Style, and Daring Strike. Now, he has more support skills, which still have drawbacks, and one can take away his and other units' health. It's the same problem that you had with Vengeful Reg'son's skill, but even worse. ;)
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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by AerisDraco » Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:11 am

But Vengeful Reg'son was Kingmaker's, not Ninja.
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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by Ninja » Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:46 am

Big Bad Bug wrote: :yey: You've evolved, Ninja! :D


I wouldn't call it evolving, but whatever. :yey:

Big Bad Bug wrote:The cooldown rant was just something I wanted to give, and your hero reminded me of it. Because I had to leave soon, I posted it quickly without giving any context, so I apologize for the confusion. However, the critique of the cooldown upgrade not being mentioned in the description did apply at the time. :)

His teleport makes Xin mobile, while staying with barracks requires a more grounded playstyle. That is why the teleport is contradictory, not because it is a damage skill amongst support skills. ;)

What do you mean that his base attacks already have magic damage? This hero has magic damage on his base attacks, but not the original Xin. The point of these makeovers is to take the really cool aesthetic theme of the heroes and use them to create a great playstyle. By changing the theme through adding magic damage to his attacks and skills, you've ruined the whole point. You may as well just create a whole other hero, then. ;)

Yes, as I wrote, his increased damage makes him better, but the limitations on how many soldiers who he can buff reduces his capabilities as a support. Supports are inherently weaker than other types of heroes because it's easier to just kill enemies than to give others the opportunities to deal more damage. Because of this, he should have much stronger support skills or a of support and damage, which I think was the original intention with Pandamonium, Panda Style, and Daring Strike. Now, he has more support skills, which balance h still have drawbacks, and one can take away his and other units' health. It's the same problem that you had with Vengeful Reg'son's skill, but even worse. ;)


#1. OK. :)

#2. Yes, staying with barracks does have to make him have a grounded playstyle, but how can he stay with the barracks he's supposed to protect if he's teleporting to the other side of the screen every 18s with no way to return? The only reason the teleport is there is just to let get back to what he was doing immediately, rather than having to take that long walk. ;)

#3. Whoopsie. Sorry, confused the original with my own adaptation. Well, TBH, I got a magical vibe from Xin in the first place. I only added magic damage to Quick Attack so that Xin can deal better damage to the enemy he attacks. (Which will probs have high armor, as is the nature of top tier enemies in Origins.) :)

#4. Ugh, that's the whole point. His limitations to 3 units doesn't make him weaker than other supports because the powers are much stronger on the whole.
I can understand the thing about health loss from Life Link, and I knew you would notice that. I just really liked the aesthetics of its explanation for loss of life. That can be changed if its really needed. I'll give him an overall buff but keep the limitations to keep him balanced if you still thinks he's UP after reading this. :)

@AerisDraco: That was an example, because I criticized V.R.'s skill that had a similar debuff. ;)
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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by AerisDraco » Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:09 am

Ah Wilbur. An underwhelming hero (so I've heard) in an underwhelming update (I've played). Let's see whether I can make him more powerful, while still keeping his inventor feel. I tried to specialize in fast attack AoE damage, and more of a glass cannon. He also sometimes benefits by being in a long straight lane. Also, I hope I didn't do bad.

Wilbur

Stats: (All L10) - Changed.
Health: 500 (Originally 570) Reduced to complement the glass cannon role.
Damage: 24-39 Physical (Originally 63-96) – Sprays a storm of bullets from a machine gun, damaging up to five enemies at once
Secondary: Flying hero.

Powers:
Dwaaaarps Engine -> Wingmen Drones (2/2/2) (passive): Summons 1/2/2 wingmen drones. These hover near Wilbur, dealing 5-12 damage per hit. At level 3, they can fly away like Arcane Sentinels for a short time, though they fly much slower.
M.A.D. Missiles -> M.A.D. Missile (3/3/3) (18 seconds): The bottom of the fuselage splits, dropping a missile which proceeds to home in on the largest group of enemies on the map. Deals 100 true AoE damage, and leaves a field of fallout that deals 3/4/5 dps and reduces the effectiveness (damage) of enemy troops by 10% for 3 seconds.
Smokespitter TX201 -> Lightning Storm (2/2/2) (15 seconds): Casts 1/2/3 lightning bolts, which deal 5-15 physical damage per hit, and may chain up to 15 times. Has a 50% chance to double Wilbur's speed for 2 seconds.
Boom Box -> Bomber Run (2/2/2) (22/20/18 seconds): Accelerates down a lane at 1.5x his normal speed, dropping a series of bombs dealing 5-10 AoE damage. Drops one bomb every meter, give or take.
PewPew Drones -> PewPew Turret (2/2/2) (20 seconds): Sets a turret which will shoot repeating lines of bullets for about 3 meters, dealing 10-15/15-20/20-25 damage per hit. Each lasts for 150 seconds. The turret's cannons start at a low angle, directly in front of the machine, and proceed to slowly increase their range and angle. They end by reverting to their ground state.

Some Aesthetics:
-Wilbur himself doesn't look that different.
-The wingmen drones look a little like Arwings, but have single cannon mounted under their nose. They have visual sensors in the form of two dark red lines where the cockpit would be. They are about as large as Gnawers.
-The missile is mid-way in size between a Fat Boy and normal missiles.
-In Lightning Storm, an antenna emerges from the nose, and proceeds to fire, before retracting.
-In Bomber Run, the bay doors open again, and Wilbur flattens himself for better aerodynamics. After dropping bombs, he flies upward, does a aileron (barrel) roll and returns to his position.
-The turrets have similar aesthetics to the pewpew drones, and fire red lasers.

Tips and stuff:
-Position him in a single, long, straight lane to take advantage of Bomber Run, as well as the turrets.
-While his HP is still high, he has no way of dodging ranged attacks, so a group of harassers, with moderate durability and those terrible arrows can be painful.
-He also is not good versus single enemies, unless you somehow get a M.A.D. Missile off on them.
-All in all, keep him near the crowds, and he'll excel.
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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by Big Bad Bug » Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:05 pm

That's not how I'd have improved him, but he seems more fun and no longer hindered by his boring passive. Though, it seems odd that you changed all of his skills. I liked PewPew Drones and his original bomb skill, they just needed better DPS.
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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by AerisDraco » Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:10 pm

I guess so. But I don't really want to change it.
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Re: The Community improves heroes.

by Big Bad Bug » Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:12 pm

Don't; if he was released like this initially, then nobody would have a problem with him, so you've done well. :)
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