Trouble with Pandamonium

[AerisDraco]

And yet, as has been pointed out before, even if Arcane Wizards demolish Cerberus' HP, Sorcerers would do it better, and make Cerberus easier for other towers (like a Tesla) to fight against it.

[Ninja]

Ahem. Behold, thou unbelievers:


(Sorry for the terrible quality of the pic. Post Img.org seems to lower the quality of your pictures.)

Edit: I tried it, and Cerberus is taken down at the same speed with Sorcs. Now this argument is really just about personal preferences.

[AerisDraco]

If I was a whiny person I would say *whines*

BUT NINJA mebbe u sold the sorcs and replaced dem on de last round!11!1

[Ninja]

If I was a whiny person I would say *whines*

BUT NINJA mebbe u sold the sorcs and replaced dem on de last round!11!1

And what joy could I possibly gain from winning this debate if I "cheated" in proving my points? There wouldn't be a point.

[Big Bad Bug]

Edit: I tried it, and Cerberus is taken down at the same speed with Sorcs. Now this argument is really just about personal preferences.

Invailid; the math specifically shows that the DPS of the Sorcerer is better than the Arcane Tower. If you're lucky when using the Arcane Tower, getting high numbers of damage, and then unlucky with the Sorcerer, getting lower numbers, then the DPS can be lower for the Sorcerer. However, such a biased test cannot be used to compare the power of the 2 towers, and is unnecessary anyways since you can easily calculate the DPS by dividing the Arcane Tower's damage by 2, which has already been done in this thread.

Another benefit of the Sorcerer Tower in Pandaemonium and all other levels is the True Damage dealt by the curse. Against magic-resistant enemies like the Demons, this effect actually makes the Sorcerer partially viable against them, unlike any other type of Mage.

[Ninja]

Invalid; the math specifically shows that the DPS of the Sorcerer is better than the Arcane Tower. If you're lucky when using the Arcane Tower, getting high numbers of damage, and then unlucky with the Sorcerer, getting lower numbers, then the DPS can be lower for the Sorcerer. However, such a biased test cannot be used to compare the power of the 2 towers, and is unnecessary anyways since you can easily calculate the DPS by dividing the Arcane Tower's damage by 2, which has already been done in this thread.

Another benefit of the Sorcerer Tower in Pandaemonium and all other levels is the True Damage dealt by the curse. Against magic-resistant enemies like the Demons, this effect actually makes the Sorcerer partially viable against them, unlike any other type of Mage.

I've tested it twice, and I'm pretty sure that you can't get that unlucky twice. I know what the numbers say, but the gameplay seems to disagree.

If no other tower type is useful, then how in the world did I pull off that win? Pandaemonium is probably the most brutal level in all three games, and it doesn't just let you get away with weak strategies.

[AerisDraco]

Twice isn't enough; at least by scientific trial standards.

Though, doing the math, the Sorcerer is only better in DPS if the curse is counted. However, there isn't really a good way to calculate this.

[Ninja]

Twice isn't enough; at least by scientific trial standards.

Though, doing the math, the Sorcerer is only better in DPS if the curse is counted. However, there isn't really a good way to calculate this.

Fine, I'll try it 3 more times. Would that be sufficient?

[Big Bad Bug]

Twice isn't enough; at least by scientific trial standards.

Though, doing the math, the Sorcerer is only better in DPS if the curse is counted. However, there isn't really a good way to calculate this.

Test it as much as possible, but it's in vain because the true numbers are already there.

Also, Sorcerers are better even without curse, unless you have a different game.

Unupgraded:
Sorcerer: 42-78
Arcane: (74-140)/2

42-78 > 37-70

Upgraded:
Sorcerer: 49-90
Arcane: (88-161)/2

49-90 > 44-80.5

In fact, an upgraded Arcane Tower is only about 2 points of damage better than Sorcerer Tower without upgrades OR the curse effect.

I have more arguments ready should you still disagree, Ninja.

[Ninja]

Twice isn't enough; at least by scientific trial standards.

Though, doing the math, the Sorcerer is only better in DPS if the curse is counted. However, there isn't really a good way to calculate this.

Test it as much as possible, but it's in vain because the true numbers are already there.

Also, Sorcerers are better even without curse, unless you have a different game.

Unupgraded:
Sorcerer: 42-78
Arcane: (74-140)/2

42-78 > 37-70

Upgraded:
Sorcerer: 49-90
Arcane: (88-161)/2

49-90 > 44-80.5

In fact, an upgraded Arcane Tower is only about 2 points of damage better than Sorcerer Tower without upgrades OR the curse effect.

I have more arguments ready should you still disagree, Ninja.

You better believe I still disagree. I just tested it more like I said it would. Gameplay is once again in disagreement with the numbers.

[AerisDraco]

DPS isn't as good, at least w/o the curse, according to the wiki's tower DPS page. Apparently, the Arcane has a 2 sec cooldown, and the Sorcerer a 1.5-1.6.

[Ninja]

DPS isn't as good, at least w/o the curse, according to the wiki's tower DPS page. Apparently, the Arcane has a 2 sec cooldown, and the Sorcerer a 1.5-1.6.

Again, I know what the numbers say. It's just that actually playing the game dictates otherwise.

[AerisDraco]

You do realize I was *kind of* supporting your side?

Anyway, does this argument really matter?

[Ninja]

You do realize I was *kind of* supporting your side?

Anyway, does this argument really matter?

Oh, whoops. I thought you were supporting BBB. Tricky wording caught me off guard.

Yes, it does. If an argument ever lasts this long, then it matters to at least some degree. (Also, I like arguing. )

[Big Bad Bug]

*Cracks knuckles* Let's do this!

If the towers do kill Cerberus within the same time as you say, then allow me to compare the towers with equal damage.

One deals higher damage at a slower rate, and the other deals less damage at a faster rate. The Sorcerer in this case is more versatile and saves damage by not over killing enemies as often. It would still be a better choice even if both towers have the same DPS.

I also must once again bring up the not-repudiated argument that the Sorcerer's Curse deals True Damage, meaning that it deals more damage to other Demons despite dealing the same against Cerberus compared to the Arcane Tower. Sure, you can beat Pandaemonium without it, but for a player who is struggling, the Sorcerer lightens the load of the level by being a stronger tower.

[Juice Box]

*Cracks knuckles* Let's do this!

If the towers do kill Cerberus within the same time as you say, then allow me to compare the towers with equal damage.

One deals higher damage at a slower rate, and the other deals less damage at a faster rate. The Sorcerer in this case is more versatile and saves damage by not over killing enemies as often. It would still be a better choice even if both towers have the same DPS.

I also must once again bring up the not-repudiated argument that the Sorcerer's Curse deals True Damage, meaning that it deals more damage to other Demons despite dealing the same against Cerberus compared to the Arcane Tower. Sure, you can beat Pandaemonium without it, but for a player who is struggling, the Sorcerer lightens the load of the level by being a stronger tower.

To add a little to that overkill bit, remember that Sorcerer Towers prefer enemies who aren't cursed over enemies who are. This means three things: A) Sorcerers will very rarely ever deal overkill damage, while an Arcane Wizard can waste an entire shot on a Demon with only 10 health left, B) Sorcerers will almost always be able to use all their damage to its full extent, and C) it makes sure that pretty much every armored enemy gets cursed, removing the very real threat of Legions, the primary armored enemy in the level.

[belsidus04]

Hi y'all. Just to let you know, I played this just now and got my perfect 20 lives Win. Sorry not to have screen-shot it, but there was nothing very fancy about it--mostly a matter of basic good Ninja/BBB strategies with more confidence on my part about RoF and placement. Also allowing R side of board to remain weak until I had enough gold to do some real damage over there. Also I found that Elora, who can seem not very good for this round, can be very useful when constantly in motion, chipping in however she can--shaving HP off Cerberi, also she's good for, basically, assassinating Demon Lords and Gualemons with low HP remaining. Made me feel quite good. Maybe now I'll try the Wizard/Sorcerer controversy. It's fun trying to win levels with only X type of tower.... Thanks again!!

[Simmonds91]

You're welcome, glad I could help.

[Ninja]

You're welcome, glad I could help.

But you didn't help him.

[AerisDraco]

Nope nope nope nope
Not another argument.