Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

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Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by Big Bad Bug » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:45 am

The war wages on! Are Sorcerers better than the Arcane Wizard? Overall, I think they are, but I know that the Arcane Wizards have their uses, just not in Pandaemonium.
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Re: Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by Simmonds91 » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:55 am

I use arcane wizards for their insta kill. I don't know how they compare to the musketeers but i dont use those so that doesn't really matter to me.

Sorcerers have better dps but even if they didnt they still shoot fast while draining the enemies magic defence. Speed > Power, its why archers are so effective after all.

Im a little surprised why this is even a thing... Do people seriously, seriously believe arcane wizards are more effective than sorcerers? Really?... Are these the same people that think the world is flat?
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Re: Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by Juice Box » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:27 am

Sorcerers are better because:
- Much, much higher DPS.
- Immensely lower chance of Overkill.
- Spreads out damage between all enemies.
- Reduces enemy armor, effectively making all three of the other tower types more powerful.
- Can stall enemies.
- Can handle itself extremely well, as it can stall, as well as deal magic, physical, and true damage.
- The above point deserves another mention because really. DpS-based magic damage, AoE-based physical damage with stalling capabilities, DoT-based true damage. It doesn't just dish out damage like a normal tower. It's practically a mixture of all four tower types.

Arcane Wizards are just not good enough because:
- They deal Burst damage. I'm sure we've all noticed in KR that DpS >>>>>>> Burst. Overkill is just too much of a problem to make Burst effective.
- Their overall DPS is much lower than a Sorcerer's.
- Upgrades for Death Ray and Teleport are ridiculously stupid. 200 gold to reduce cooldown by 2 seconds because yes, that's obviously a good investment. And yeah, 100 gold to get a chance to teleport one more enemy down the path, obviously worth it.
- Desperately requires support to unleash its full potential. You're gonna have to make sure Teleport lands right spot-on the largest group of enemies, and you're gonna spend a lot of effort making sure the stupid Wulf doesn't take the Death Ray hit for the Forest Troll just because it's faster.

Guys, think about it, okay? It's not about the Arcane Wizard sucking so much, it's about the Sorcerer Tower being too OP in comparison. High-damage, DpS, DoT, AoE, true damage, can go through both physical armor and magic resistance. It's got pretty much everything. There's no questioning which Tower is better.

It's a little like Assassins vs Templars, except more one-sided. Yeah, you can argue that somehow Templars would be better in some ways, but overall you'd pick Assassins because they're just flat-out better in like, pretty much every way.
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Re: Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by AerisDraco » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:19 pm

For the longest time, I always though Templars were better. But that was because I was ignoring attack speed and dodge chance.

The Arcane Wizard is however, when fully upgraded, cheaper. But I'm still a Sorcerer supporter.
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Re: Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by xstargaming » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:37 pm

Juice Box presented most of the reasons I have for supporting Sorcerers over Arcane Wizards, yet the best remained unmentioned: using it you can click enemies to death. In truth, this is the equivalent of the Arcane Wizard's Death Ray; it just requires a bit more interactivity to make it work. :D
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Re: Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by Anorak » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:44 pm

Ya, its sorcerers for me, because of the reasons everyone else already gave. But the main reason I like them is because you can summon a huge rock to fight for you.

@areis, I used to think the Templars where better too, I'll still use them every now and then, before I tried the assassins once and was like holy cow! These guys are so much better!
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Re: Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by Ninja » Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:44 pm

xstargaming wrote:Juice Box presented most of the reasons I have for supporting Sorcerers over Arcane Wizards, yet the best remained unmentioned: using it you can click enemies to death. In truth, this is the equivalent of the Arcane Wizard's Death Ray; it just requires a bit more interactivity to make it work. :D


Except that you don't get any money for doing so, and its cooldown for that is longer than Death Ray for no noticeable reason. There's no way you can seriously compare Polymorph to Death Ray. Also, half the time you don't even notice that stupid Yeti Sheep with 1500 HP, and then BLAM, it runs past everyone and somehow kills 5 people with its terrifying hooves when it escapes. ;)

@Simmonds91: Yes, there are people who prefer the Arcane Wizard, like myself, and I'd prefer it if you weren't so condescending of them before you even see what they have to say.

@Juice Box: The thing about upgrades actually helps, because you can leave their powers at tier 1 and still have some reliable abilities. And, should you ever need the Wizard to recharge that Death Ray 2 seconds faster, then you can purchase the further upgrades for it. As for Teleport, 2 more enemies being teleported is actually worth it. Sometimes, that's almost the whole wave, and the enemies get stuck in an infinite Teleport Loop. Also, the DPS chart on the wiki actually shows that their DPS is not nearly as high as you think, and the Arcane Wizard actually outclasses them in that area. In fact, it even shows that their Cost Efficiency (Which is also a big player when considering towers, BTW.) is almost twice as good as the Sorcerers. Yeah, sure it requires support, but almost every REALLY good thing in KR does. Reg'son, for example. Durax, with all that micro-management.

Sorcerers are only better for players who don't like actually doing anything. I'll admit that armor reduction is ridiculously good, and that is one thing that the Sorcerer does better than the AT. I'll say the same thing I said about Overkill to you that I did to BBB. (Through PMs, that is.) On Pandaemonium, the level being taken into consideration, Overkill is barely a problem anyway because Demons have such high HP. Yes, the Sorcerer can handle itself well, but the Arcane Wizard, with proper care, is just so much better.
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Re: Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by The Kingmaker » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:00 pm

*yawn*

I personally prefer to use Sorcerers than Arcane Wizards because I prefer their aesthetics, gel well with rangers and other towers I enjoy using and suit my semi-casual regular playstyle. At the end of the day you lot can discuss numbers all you want to but personal preference is what it boils down to.
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Re: Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by xstargaming » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:11 pm

Ninja wrote:Except that you don't get any money for doing so, and its cooldown for that is longer than Death Ray for no noticeable reason. There's no way you can seriously compare Polymorph to Death Ray. Also, half the time you don't even notice that stupid Yeti Sheep with 1500 HP, and then BLAM, it runs past everyone and somehow kills 5 people with its terrifying hooves when it escapes. ;)


Indeed, you do sacrifice some gold, but they have the same cooldown length. Also, that's the point I made about interactivity: you have to be observant and work more closely with the field of battle to murder that little yeti sheep. ;)
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Re: Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by Ninja » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:13 pm

xstargaming wrote:
Ninja wrote:Except that you don't get any money for doing so, and its cooldown for that is longer than Death Ray for no noticeable reason. There's no way you can seriously compare Polymorph to Death Ray. Also, half the time you don't even notice that stupid Yeti Sheep with 1500 HP, and then BLAM, it runs past everyone and somehow kills 5 people with its terrifying hooves when it escapes. ;)


Indeed, you do sacrifice some gold, but they have the same cooldown length. Also, that's the point I made about interactivity: you have to be observant and work more closely with the field of battle to murder that little yeti sheep. ;)


It's still worse, though. It may be fun to do, but it isn't nearly as effective. ;)

Also, before this argument continues, I'd like to say this:

Don't get me wrong, I really like the Sorc too, I just find the AT more interesting and reliable. :)
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Re: Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by AerisDraco » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:21 pm

^^

If I'm going to be argumentative, though:

Ninja wrote:The thing about upgrades actually helps, because you can leave their powers at tier 1 and still have some reliable abilities. And, should you ever need the Wizard to recharge that Death Ray 2 seconds faster, then you can purchase the further upgrades for it.


Fair enough. Death Ray is generally more effective.

Ninja wrote:As for Teleport, 2 more enemies being teleported is actually worth it. Sometimes, that's almost the whole wave, and the enemies get stuck in an infinite Teleport Loop.


Teleport Loops are not nearly that easy as you seem to imply. They are a pain, and often, they only work on slow enemies, like Forest Trolls. They're fun in those cases, but against anything faster than maybe medium, they don't work more than once. Besides, the teleport distance is random. Also, generally, by the time you can afford/have bought Teleport III (1220 gold), the waves consist of much more than 6 enemies.

Ninja wrote:Also, the DPS chart on the wiki actually shows that their DPS is not nearly as high as you think, and the Arcane Wizard actually outclasses them in that area. In fact, it even shows that their Cost Efficiency (Which is also a big player when considering towers, BTW.) is almost twice as good as the Sorcerers. Yeah, sure it requires support, but almost every REALLY good thing in KR does.


The page does show the Arcane having a better DPS. However, this doesn't factor the curse. If the curse is factored, the Sorcerer does outclass the Arcane. (And sorry, not everyone chooses towers based on cost efficiency. One of the main selling point of KR, and the TD genre in general is that there are many, many ways to beat a level. Though, to be fair, most of us {I guess} just know which of the two towers is better DPS-wise and just choose that one when we're playing casually)

Ninja wrote:Sorcerers are only better for players who don't like actually doing anything. I'll admit that armor reduction is ridiculously good, and that is one thing that the Sorcerer does better than the AT. I'll say the same thing I said about Overkill to you that I did to BBB. On Pandaemonium, the level being taken into consideration, Overkill is barely a problem anyway because Demons have such high HP. Yes, the Sorcerer can handle itself well, but the Arcane Wizard, with proper care, is just so much better.

Actually, if by "don't like actually doing anything" you mean micro, the Sorcerer actually has that, unlike the Arcane. If that's not what that sentence means, what does it mean? And also, for the other point, I'll go with the classic, if cliched response of "Pandaemonium isn't always the level in question."
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Re: Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by Ninja » Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:01 pm

Numbered so I don't have to quote all of that. (Death Ray point excluded, because you've conceded it.)

1) I know they only work on giant, slow enemies, but that's where ATs shine brightest anyways. And by 6 six enemy waves, I mean the ones that consist only of large enemies; I know that most waves are greater than that. :roll:

2) Curse, is yes, not factored in, so I concede that. But, the way they spread out damage certainly doesn't help against specific foes that you wish to be annihilated. (Personal playstyles have no place in an argument discussing which tower is more efficacious. Cost Efficiency must be considered.)

3) Sure, micro of upgrading the Elemental when it has low HP. Other than that, all you can do with a Sorcerer is sit there and wait for the level to end. Also, Pandaemonium is the level in question with this argument, even BBB implied as much in the OP. ;)
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Re: Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by AerisDraco » Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:02 pm

1. 36 enemies? That's a lot.
2. Fair enough, but any extra damage, especially of the true kind, really helps.
3. And what do you do with the AW that's different? Also, while Pandaemonium is where this argument started, the question here is in general.
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Re: Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by Ninja » Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:29 pm

1) Um yes, actually it is. It's about a third of the enemies.

2) Extra damage is helpful against single targets. It really doesn't help much when it's spread so thin. ;)

3) I micro units to isolate the right enemies for Death Ray to kill, carefully plan positioning to get the best benefits from Looping and Chaining Teleports, and those are off the top of my head. Give me some time to think of more. According to the PMs that I've received from BBB, this thread is also based on how good they are in Pandaemonium. (As far as I understand, that is.)
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Re: Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by AerisDraco » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:00 pm

I assume this argument can't end at what really should be the proper end, i.e. that Arcanes are better at single-target heavy damage, and Sorcs are better for crowd control and support, right?

(Also, BTW, by 1. I was pointing out that you put "6 six enemies" in the post I was responding to; I think it was a mistake)
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Re: Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by Ninja » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:08 pm

AerisDraco wrote:I assume this argument can't end at what really should be the proper end, i.e. that Arcanes are better at single-target heavy damage, and Sorcs are better for crowd control and support, right?

(Also, BTW, by 1. I was pointing out that you put "6 six enemies" in the post I was responding to; I think it was a mistake)


I said six enemy waves, like before. ;)
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Re: Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by Big Bad Bug » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:28 am

Look at the OP. I wrote that I think Sorcerers are better overall, meaning that Pandaemonium is but one level to compare the efficiency of each tower among every other level after the boss battle with J.T. So, this thread is really for comparing both towers in general, not just for Pandaemonium, but evidence from that level is completely valid so long as it isn't used to represent the towers in all situations. ;)

Ninja wrote:Except that you don't get any money for doing so, and its cooldown for that is longer than Death Ray for no noticeable reason.


What? They both have the same cooldown as far as I'm aware. Do you have some sort of video evidence comparing the cooldowns to back this up?

Ninja wrote:The thing about upgrades actually helps, because you can leave their powers at tier 1 and still have some reliable abilities. And, should you ever need the Wizard to recharge that Death Ray 2 seconds faster, then you can purchase the further upgrades for it. As for Teleport, 2 more enemies being teleported is actually worth it. Sometimes, that's almost the whole wave, and the enemies get stuck in an infinite Teleport Loop.


You can also leave the Sorcerer's powers at level 1 since the main efficiency of the Elemental and Polymorph comes from the first upgrade of each, just as it does for Death Ray and Teleport. Therefore, the abilities cannot be compared in that sense. The upgrades argument is a moot point.

The Teleport Loop argument is futile. Imagine an army of 2 or 3 Elementals: any one enemy would have a ridiculously hard time getting past the 3 of them before getting killed. It would need a DPS high enough to kill 2 Elementals before the 3rd respawned as well as enough durability to survive their attacks on top of the Sorcerer's high-damaging, armor-negating attack. Also, having multiple Arcane Wizards strewn across the map is a poor way to use them from my experience. You want Teslas and Rangers in the front to take out the majority of enemies, leaving only the toughest ones remaining to then be killed by an Arcane Wizard's Death Ray. 1 per lane is the most I've ever used, and most of the time, I use none(because the Sorcerer is better ;) ).

Ninja wrote:Also, the DPS chart on the wiki actually shows that their DPS is not nearly as high as you think, and the Arcane Wizard actually outclasses them in that area. In fact, it even shows that their Cost Efficiency (Which is also a big player when considering towers, BTW.) is almost twice as good as the Sorcerers. Yeah, sure it requires support, but almost every REALLY good thing in KR does. Reg'son, for example. Durax, with all that micro-management.


The wiki also says that Death Ray and Polymorph share a cooldown. ;)

Cost Efficiency is one of the least important parts of the game from my experience. Placing a tower with the right abilities and traits tends to be the key in terms of strategy. Things like armor negation, being able to debuff and deal harm to multiple enemies, a mixture of all 3 main damage types, stalling enemies, and AOE damage all give the Sorcerer advantages that can't be measured, but are certainly more commonly-occurring than the Arcane Wizard's benefits as well as more applicable to more situations because there are so many more advantages with the Sorcerer.

Ninja wrote:Sorcerers are only better for players who don't like actually doing anything. I'll admit that armor reduction is ridiculously good, and that is one thing that the Sorcerer does better than the AT. I'll say the same thing I said about Overkill to you that I did to BBB. (Through PMs, that is.) On Pandaemonium, the level being taken into consideration, Overkill is barely a problem anyway because Demons have such high HP. Yes, the Sorcerer can handle itself well, but the Arcane Wizard, with proper care, is just so much better.


For Pandaemonium specifically, or any other level, regardless of how often the Arcane Tower overkills enemies, the Sorcerer will overkill less. For every Demon that takes an extra 20 damage from the 40-50 that the Arcane Wizards deal to them, how many more will die from the DOT of the Sorcerer's Curse while the tower focuses on other enemies with more health? Thanks to the Curse, enemies will not take more than 9 extra damage in a single second, and another foe who has yet to be struck can be attacked as the Curse finishes off weaker enemies.
Last edited by Big Bad Bug on Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by AerisDraco » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:39 am

A note on Cost Efficiency:
-The wiki page is not extremely reliable, considering most of the stats are incomplete.
-As far as I know, no one actually goes and looks at the page while playing a level just to compare cost efficiency.
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Re: Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by Ninja » Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:55 am

But the stats for these towers are complete. ;)
I've looked at the page while playing before, but I don't need to anymore, because I've basically got the page memorized by now.
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Re: Sorcerers vs Arcane Wizards

by The Kingmaker » Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:13 am

Can I try and pick apart the debate to get to one fact?

DPS: Ninja claims Arcane is best here, Juice Box (and many other people, myself included) say Sorcerer is best. Do we have definitive numbers or do we need to make or own? Because if we don't have the numbers we should go out and get them. I personally tested Faustus' DPS when making his variation (which is on its way, but I have 4 good powers and nothing for a fifth)
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