Testing Assassins' Pickpocket ability

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Testing Assassins' Pickpocket ability

by sunnydaler » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:07 am

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To test the ability, I chose these 3 maps; Crimson Valley campaign, Lost Jungle campaign, and the Underpass campaign.

I built 1 Assassins Guild first and upgraded it with level 1 Pickpocket, and maxed Dodge/Counterattack.
Immediately after that I played with the same layout again, this time without Pickpocket.
Then I compared the gold left at the end of the game. Of course the gold earned from calling early waves is deducted.
Crimson Valley campaign: difference 113
Lost Jungle campaign: difference 35(1st session), 44(2nd)
The Underpass campaign: difference 168

It made negligible differences and the investment is recovered around the end of the game. And
the more your defense is strong, the less they contact physically with enemies, resulting less stolen gold.
There is a fun fact in it but its merit is very little considering Assassins are necessary only on a handful of levels.

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This time I used Buccaneer's Den campaign map. and put 1 Assassins at the front of the ship.
Only then it made a notable difference; 512 gold.
However, generally no one would place barracks forward and make them face enemies first. And upgrading barracks to lvl 4 usually happens in the midst of the game.
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Re: Testing Assassins' Pickpocket ability

by sunnydaler » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:36 am

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I tested the ability again on Crimson Valley with a different layout.
Now it's level 2 Pickpocket and I built only the bare minimum to keep enemies under control; 2 Crossbow Forts with tier 1 Barrage, 1 bare DWAARP.
The difference it made was big enough; 844 gold. It means they collected more than 1000 gold. :o
This makes me want to test it on Rising Tides. It'll be interesting. 8-)
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Re: Testing Assassins' Pickpocket ability

by sunnydaler » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:31 pm

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Another test, this time on Storm Atoll campaign. I upgraded Assassins on the upper exit with level 2 pickpocket.
The other nearby towers are Crossbow Fort (maxed Barrage), Battle-Mecha (maxed Wasp missiles), and Necromancer (without upgrade).

The difference was 295 gold. The invested 200 gold was recovered in wave 8.
Last edited by sunnydaler on Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Testing Assassins' Pickpocket ability

by kicorse » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:58 pm

Nice to see a systematic analysis of this. It confirms my suspicions in the vast majority of cases. A while ago I did the Buccaneers' Den test and may have even got to +1000 test with Level 2 pickpocket, counter-attack, and no sneak attack. However, of course it was only possible to do that because it's a very easy level, and I deliberately put my assassins out of range of my towers/heroes to keep the enemies alive for as long as possible.

You need a real confluence of circumstances for pickpocket to be worthwhile:

1) Barracks need to be better than Necromancers, or necromancers need to be unavailable (this rules out most levels in my view, but some like Lost Jungle are a complete non-starter)
2) It needs to be worth upgrading the barracks (rules out underground levels, because you just need low-level barracks at the back to catch darters and nightscales. To be honest, in both KR and KRF I need a special reason to upgrade my barracks past Level 1.)
3) Assassins need to be the Level 4 barracks of choice (since they are usually better than Knights Templar, that's not much of an issue)
4) The later waves need to be harder than the earlier waves, before it has paid for itself (this rules out most levels)

So when are barracks better than necromancers? One case is when there are ghouls and lycans around, in which case you incur a penalty for allowing soldiers to die, so you don't want weak soldiers.

When is it worth upgrading the barracks? Again, when there are ghouls and lycans around, for the same reason.

When are assassins the Level 4 barracks of choice? Well, most of the time, but certainly against most Haunted Wastes enemies. You could argue that Abominations are an exception, but even then it's a draw because of assassins' shorter respawn.

And where do you find relatively easy early waves and harder later waves? In my view, Desecrated Grove.

Sadly I can't post screenshots from my kindle fire. I can only describe it. I start by building assassins with Level 2 pickpocket (yes I know this is less efficient than Level 1, but it is still worth it) and fully upgraded counterattack, and positioning them as far forward as possible (just to the west of the bridge), so that they are constantly fighting ghouls and zombies on Wave 1 (unsupported, although archery towers and Bruxa will clean up zombies that slip through). There are various other moments when I deliberately take them out of range of my towers to accumulate more gold.

Pickpocket pays for itself around Wave 5 or 6, and by the end it has accumulated nearly 1000 extra gold. I have checked and the same strategy can work without pickpocket, but it is much easier with than without.
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Re: Testing Assassins' Pickpocket ability

by sunnydaler » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:09 pm

Thanks, kicorse. I really enjoyed reading your post. I haven't tried it on Desecrated Grove but just did on the Sunken Citadel.

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I had been thinking Pickpocket would be helpful on this map because Deep Devils give relatively little gold for what they are and you really need extra gold here. And it turned out to be right.
The Assassins on the main island was up and running since wave 2 and was upgraded with level 1 Sneak Attack, maxed Dodge, and level 1 Pickpocket. I changed the rally point only once til the boss fight.
The difference in gold was 708 and the invested gold was retrieved during wave 6. More gold flow was really handy and I wholeheartedly recommend upgrading Pickpocket at least on this map.

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The other 3 towers on the main island are...
DWAARP with maxed Furnace Blast and level 1 Core Drill
Necromancer without upgrade
Crossbow Fort with maxed Barrage and level 1 Falconer
Last edited by sunnydaler on Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Testing Assassins' Pickpocket ability

by sunnydaler » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:46 pm

A new discovery!
Contrary to popular belief, Sneak Attack and Pickpocket can proc together at the same time.

Have a look at the following gifs.
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And Pickpocket only procs on Assassins attack (Sneak Attack, Counterattack, regular attack) not on Dodge.
I'm going to change the wiki article on this.
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Re: Testing Assassins' Pickpocket ability

by kicorse » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:28 pm

Well, that's really interesting. I've always avoided upgrading sneak attack early when using pickpocket. Might have to change that.

And your Sunken Citadel approach. I'm amazed that works! I mean, I can see the logic. Use the artillery to stun, rather than kill the enemies, which keeps both your assassins and the enemies alive for more pickpocket. Then rely on instant kills and true damage from furnace blast in later waves. It's just that it's almost the opposite of the approach that works for me, albeit unreliably (I have <50% chance of keeping all 20 lives on veteran). I quickly had a go with the DWAARP+Assassin approach and was leaking enemies on casual, but I'll have to keep trying.

By the way, this is my Desecrated Grove approach on which pickpocket is definitely worth it.

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Tower names and upgrades are for the end of the 13th wave (just spam Cluster and Barrage on waves 14 and 15 - no thought required). The three numbers are:

Wave on which I build the Level 1 tower - Wave on which I build the Level 4 tower - Wave on which I buy upgrades


These numbers are approximate. I don't do it the exactly the same every time. The assassins in the middle have a fourth number because I buy sneak attack much later than the other upgrades. Or used to, anyway....

Contrary to the picture, the hero I use is Bruxa. She needs a lot of micro, but it's all pretty intuitive. The only counter-intuitive thing is pushing your central assassins as far forward as possible when they are only fighting zombies, ghouls and/or abominations (not werewolves or lycans, and not during a full moon).
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Re: Testing Assassins' Pickpocket ability

by sunnydaler » Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:42 pm

Here's my vid link for the Sunken Citadel. https://youtu.be/AcLlhfekgYc
This time level 2 Pickpocket! The net profit was 1290 gold. :yey:
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Re: Testing Assassins' Pickpocket ability

by sunnydaler » Fri May 04, 2018 3:31 pm

Today I used Cpt. Blackthorne along with maxed Assassins on the Sunken Citadel.
I cannot tell exactly how much gold they each stole. But there was about 900 more gold left at the end than before. So this combo can steal more than 2000 extra gold.

Blackthorne has a chance to steal 5 gold with each melee attack whereas. In case of assassins it is 1~3 gold.
Btw, the pirate hero doesn't have any skill that does true damage.
Last edited by sunnydaler on Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Testing Assassins' Pickpocket ability

by sunnydaler » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:28 am

Hey, kicorse
I just played Desecrated Grove campaign (veteran) and incorporated some of your ideas.
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I built
2 Assassins Guilds, fully maxed the middle one, maxed SneakAttack and Dodge on the top
(I put Assassins in the middle so that I can micromanage and block both paths.)
2 Crossbow Forts, maxed Barrage on both and maxed falconer on the top
3 Archmage Towers with maxed Critical Mass
1 Necromancer Tower
1 Tribal Axethrowers with maxed Totem of Weakness

It isn't my definitive layout, still working on it...

Anyway, this level is a lot harder and crazier than Storm Atoll, which can be beaten calling all waves instantly and barely require micromanagement.
Last edited by sunnydaler on Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:41 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Testing Assassins' Pickpocket ability

by sunnydaler » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:24 pm

That previous strategy lacked consistency, so I slightly tweaked it.
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I spent more but still, so much gold is left at the end. :mrgreen:
The difference was 1200~1300 gold. :yey: The result is very close to that on the Sunken Citadel map.
It is difficult to calculate the real net profit because the enemies summoned by Jack'O Lantern give gold on Steam.

I made it under 19 minutes with Bruxa. (Bonehart can manage it under 17. So OP.)
I put Bruxa where she is in the picture and barely moved her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWe942lR1Bo
That full moon on wave 14 is so evil. I called the wave too early.

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Have you seen this? 2 Jack O' Lanterns at the same time! While an Assassin fights him on the lower path, another appeared. :o
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Re: Testing Assassins' Pickpocket ability

by sunnydaler » Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:38 am

Storm Atoll Iron
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The Underpass Iron
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I ran 2 tests in order to find out whether Pickpocket is worth investing in a relatively short challenge like these.

Storm Atoll Iron: I built 2 Assassins with level 2 Dodge and level 1 Pickpocket on the upper exit. and gradually maxed Sneak Attack and Dodge.
The Underpass Iron: Layout is consisted of 1 Assassins with level 1 Pickpocket & the other skills maxed, 2 Crossbow Forts with maxed Barrage, 1 Tribal Axethrowers with both Totems.
The net profits were 318 and 208 gold respectively. Not big of a difference. I found it helpful in Storm Atoll though not in the Underpass (but fun!). The more I use Pickpocket, the more I find its usage. :mrgreen:
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