Regarding Religion

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Regarding Religion

by Ninja » Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:23 am

A conversation on religion spawned in Nova's thread about defending logic, and it is now getting quite off-topic, plus I want to join the debate. That's why I've created this thread. Here are a few guidelines that I suggest you follow when commenting in this thread, unless you want it to be locked, as it most likely will be locked by a moderator if the discussion becomes too heated:

  • Refrain from insulting and name-calling. It's completely acceptable to be passionate about your views, but expressing your passion in an angry and insulting manner is unnecessary. Like the Forum Rules say: If you become too angry, just take a break for a while to calm yourself.
  • Argue logically. Stating your perspective in an irrational way is hardly conducive to proving your point, and it just adds confusion to the thread.
  • Don't automatically dismiss an idea as foolish if you disagree with it. Logically reason through why you disagree with it in your mind, and then listen to arguments presented to you with an analytical mindset.
  • Regardless of religion or viewpoint, I encourage anyone who wishes to present their perspective in this thread to do so.

With that, I'll begin by stating my perspective.

I'm a Christian and a Six-Day Creationist. I also believe in a young Earth (about 6000 years old according to calculations derived from genealogies in the Bible). In other words, I believe that the theory of evolution is false, and I believe that the Earth was created in six literal days according to the biblical account of Creation. Therefore, I will argue from that viewpoint.

I am going to respond to Zonoro's last comment from Nova's thread below:

Zonoro13 wrote:There is a scientific explanation for how the snake came to be. This explanation makes a lot of sense and has evidence for it. The same explanation works for humans.

If God can exist without being created, why can't the universe exist without being created by God? If there is a God who existed forever, why is there only one? Why is a single, omnipotent god a good explanation for the universe, when there are dozens of theories that make a lot more sense (like the Big Bang)?


I won't respond to that first part since it simply assumes that evolution is true without providing the scientific evidence that Zonoro speaks of. There's really no point to argue there. Regarding the second paragraph, I'll gladly answer those questions:

1) If you believe that the universe exists without being created, then you have to choose from one of 2 options. The first is that the universe has always existed. There are many problems with this. One such problem is that the universe is expanding. By now, it would have "unraveled". Entropy would have taken its full toll on the universe long ago if it has indeed existed for all eternity. So then, you are left with option 2, that being abiogenesis. There is a major flaw with this as well. To have abiogenesis occur, information has to come out of nothing. Simply by random chance, information would have had to have appeared at some point. This simply does not happen. Information has never been observed to appear by random chance, and science relies entirely on observable evidence.

2) God is omniscient, meaning that He knows everything. This means that He would know if there were other gods. He has stated in the Bible that all other gods are man-dreamed and are therefore false gods.

3) How does the Big Bang make more sense than God? I've already given my arguments against abiogenesis. Where are your arguments for it? Furthermore, I have a written record of the beginning of the universe in my possession. It is called the Creation account, and is able to be found in Genesis 1 of the Bible. Where is your record of the beginning of the universe? And where is your omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent witness who created the universe?
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Re: Regarding Religion

by Zonoro13 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:13 pm

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/bio ... -evolution

The evidence for evolution is taught in schools and is common knowledge. I did not think something so basic needed to be backed up.

Abiogenesis does not refer to the beginning of the universe, but to the origin of life. If you want to sound smart, at least use the right words. :^)

The big bang theory is satisfactory because it is the theory we have the most evidence for (again, the evidence is taught in schools and should be common knowledge). The ineffability of the singularity is no more unbelievable than the idea of an omnipotent being. If you don't believe in the big bang theory, why don't you support the steady state theory? It solves both of your problems and is more logical than religion.

The big bang theory essentially proves the universe started with a singularity. We do not have the scientific knowledge to know much more than this.

Your second argument assumes first that there is an omniscient being, and second that the BIble is a true account. Both of these are false.

3. I do have my own account of creation, called the Quran. Also Greek mythology. Also Roman and Chinese and African and Central American religions. Why is your explanation more valid?

There is no convincing evidence to show that a deity ever existed.

I think one thing that would help you think about this is Occam's Razor.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
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Re: Regarding Religion

by AerisDraco » Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:53 pm

Can I support the interpretation that the world was created not long ago by planet-builders hired by 4th-dimensional beings that manifest in this dimension as mice; and that it's purpose was to act as a biological supercomputer to figure out what the Question is?
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Re: Regarding Religion

by Sir Toddalot » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:54 pm

So its a lot easier to believe that billions of years ago random stuff from who knows where mixed together, exploded, and created billions of stars and planets, one of which was earth. Somehow through some complicated process a single cell organism was created, which then evolved into billions of different species of all shapes and sizes. Then monkeys discovered fire,and all their hair fell off, and voila! A human! (I know its a lot more complicated that, this is just a condensed version.) Thats certainly much easier to believe than an deity creating the whole world in six days. The idea that a God created the world is a lot simpler to believe than over billions of years the universe went from having nothing in it to trillions of stars planets and lifeforms.
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Re: Regarding Religion

by RaZoR LeAf » Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:38 pm

Sir Toddalot wrote:So its a lot easier to believe that billions of years ago random stuff from who knows where mixed together, exploded, and created billions of stars and planets, one of which was earth. Somehow through some complicated process a single cell organism was created, which then evolved into billions of different species of all shapes and sizes. Then monkeys discovered fire,and all their hair fell off, and voila! A human! (I know its a lot more complicated that, this is just a condensed version.) Thats certainly much easier to believe than an deity creating the whole world in six days. The idea that a God created the world is a lot simpler to believe than over billions of years the universe went from having nothing in it to trillions of stars planets and lifeforms.


Everything is easier to believe a simplied version over a detailed scientific explanation.

Ships are made of metal, so why don't they sink? Buoyancy? Too complicated, let's go for Magic/God's will.
Why do objects fall to the ground? Gravity? Too complicated, let's go for Magic/God's will.
How can a three by two inch device hold thousands of songs, photos and access endless videos and books, whilst fitting in the palm of your hand? Computers and Digital compression? Too complicated, let's go for Magic/God's will.
The Big Bang? Cosmic inflation and baryogenesis? Too complicated, let's go for Magic/God's will.

"The good thing about science, is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." - Neil deGrasse Tyson

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke

I have a written record of the beginning of the universe in my possession. It is called the Creation account, and is able to be found in Genesis 1 of the Bible. Where is your record of the beginning of the universe? And where is your omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent witness who created the universe?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Brief_History_of_Time

What's written in it is still being discussed, still being researched, still being studied and is still teaching us new things about the universe. The difference between the Big Bang and Creationism is that the latter is taken as fact and that's the end of it, because God says it's true, therefore it is (assuming an omniscient being has no reason to lie). The Big Bang is a theory, we don't know exactly what happened and we never truly can, but we strive to learn more about it rather than accept what someone else has said and be done with it.
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Re: Regarding Religion

by SealDarklight » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:14 pm

There happened a different story before our universe existed. God is one and many, its not good or evil and it created it. God takes one and many form, God exist and doesnt, there were less but also many of them. There isnt a God but there is. Creatures and plants tries to understand what happened. I belive differently with reality. Holy books are books, there is no true answer and it only created a cult like a fandom. You either belive or dont belive. Its a different view than we can sense if you read deep into your mind. No one has ever seen or felt this things before.
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Re: Regarding Religion

by Magnus0 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:24 pm

I honestly don´t understand how the entire history of the earth can possibly fit in only 6000 years.

Did God create the world with buried dinosaur fossils included? Or have dinosaurs never existed, because they're not mentioned in the bible? Have they existed alongside humans and just died out somehow? If so, then why did the dinosaurs die and not the humans?

What about geographical phenomenon, like say earthquakes and eruptions. In most cases, those things happen because pressure is being built up and then released at once (obviously it's more complicated than this, but you get the idea). It can take over 6000 years to build sufficient pressure for some of the strongest quakes or eruptions that have happened on earth, so how can strong earthquakes and eruptions occur if the earth isn't even that old.

Has the Pangea-continent existed? Is it just coincidence that the east coast of South-America and the west coast of Afrika seem to align almost seamlessly? Is it just coincidence that fossils of the same sort of species of animal have been found on both South-America and Africa, and only on those two continents, even though animal would never be able to cross the giant ocean that lies between both continents currently?

These are genuine questions that come to mind when someone tells me that they believe that the earth is 6000 years old. I don't want to offend you Ninja, but I was honestly surprised when I read that you're a young-earth creationist. There's just so much solid evidence against the theory, that it is pretty bold, or even ignorant to think in a young earth. The more I think about it, the less it makes sense to me.
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Re: Regarding Religion

by nova_n » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:43 am

I was catholic. I am more agnostic now i guess. Atheism and catholosism seem are not correct on everything. Of course the entire history of the universe cannot fit into 6000 years. But then The creation of the universe makes no sense without well... a creator. Also if you you do try to argue that the universe could have just existed forever, well

1. you can also then use that same argument for a god. But then at the same time the athiest can say there is no need for a god if it already existed forever.The theist can then say. "Well how do you know it existed forever? maybe there was a god that existed forever" And then the athiest replies with "Well how do you know its not vice versa" and back and forth back and forth back and forth.......

2.The big bang is the most acceted theory. And it only makes sense that a creator made it happen.(i should probably do more research on this. But everything on google scholara and jstor is so goddamn long! and so many of them too!) And if you argue that that singularity was just there forever, why didnt it "big bang" before? Why in that infinite amount of time did it not do it earlier?

3.Infinity. If it somehow magically was just there, we would not be here now. Its counting from infinity. Or sinc infinity is not a number, its like counting every number between 0 and 1. You will never reach 1, or 0.5, etc
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Re: Regarding Religion

by Sinque2 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:25 am

@Ninja The universe popping into existence out of nothing being incorrect is also saying God popping out of nothing is incorrect.

The universe existing for forever is also possible, perhaps every many billion years the universe is pulled into a ball somehow, and explodes in a big bang. I was thinking about science a few days ago, and it occurred to me that there could, theoretically be a black hole at the end of time, pulling objects through time, which is why we go through time. Mind you, I don't believe in this (at least not yet), there is about as little evidence and sense as, well, religion. Basically, objects will eventually get hot and stop moving apart from each other (again, still working on the theory), and will be pulled together into a ball. Then they go boom and explode in the big bang, starting a new age of the universe.

Also, objects do pop into existence out of nowhere, it is in quantum mechanics and has been proven. Granted, negative mass also pops into existence and instant later the matter is gone, but still.

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Re: Regarding Religion

by Ninja » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:50 am

I am typing my reply for you guys, but it is quite long, and I have time constraints such as school (plus I have to sleep :lol:). Hopefully, I'll post my reply by Friday or Saturday. Thank you for your patience. :)
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Re: Regarding Religion

by SealDarklight » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:25 pm

Im Lex Lutheran and people can belive what ever they want. I mean religion is ment to belive gods existence but no one knows if god exists or not and are there only one or many gods. The answer to this is the possibility of inpossibility. I mean bible is a thing what they belive but the Abrahamic religion only belives in one god and to them it is the true god and other religion from asian, egyptian, vikings and other belive there is more gods. Its hard to answer since a god is the creator and he/she/it is the most powerfull on its own way. I belive god is more than a human or any creature and it can be many different from itself and god itself takes many forms even ourselves or a planet. Regardless its a hard answer how the space was created and how god was born and there cassillion trillion fillion apillion hikillion million questions to answer.
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Re: Regarding Religion

by Sir Toddalot » Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:16 pm

Magnus0 wrote:I honestly don´t understand how the entire history of the earth can possibly fit in only 6000 years.

Did God create the world with buried dinosaur fossils included? Or have dinosaurs never existed, because they're not mentioned in the bible? Have they existed alongside humans and just died out somehow? If so, then why did the dinosaurs die and not the humans?

What about geographical phenomenon, like say earthquakes and eruptions. In most cases, those things happen because pressure is being built up and then released at once (obviously it's more complicated than this, but you get the idea). It can take over 6000 years to build sufficient pressure for some of the strongest quakes or eruptions that have happened on earth, so how can strong earthquakes and eruptions occur if the earth isn't even that old.

Has the Pangea-continent existed? Is it just coincidence that the east coast of South-America and the west coast of Afrika seem to align almost seamlessly? Is it just coincidence that fossils of the same sort of species of animal have been found on both South-America and Africa, and only on those two continents, even though animal would never be able to cross the giant ocean that lies between both continents currently?

These are genuine questions that come to mind when someone tells me that they believe that the earth is 6000 years old. I don't want to offend you Ninja, but I was honestly surprised when I read that you're a young-earth creationist. There's just so much solid evidence against the theory, that it is pretty bold, or even ignorant to think in a young earth. The more I think about it, the less it makes sense to me.


Dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible, Job 40. They were probably tons before the flood, and before the flood all animals were plant eaters so they would have lived alongside humans. After the flood, there would have been only two of each kind of dinosaurs left, and after the flood there would have been a huge lack of food, the environment of earth would have been much different than before, and tons of species would have died off, including the dinosaur. As for the fossils, well the flood was a huge natural disaster that took place very suddenly, the quick burial of tons of animals and World being completely covered in water caused the fossilization of tons of animals. (Please excuse my horrible sentence structure and grammar.)

As for the Pangea theory, well that can be explained to. Genesis 1:9 records, “And God said, ‘Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.’ And it was so.” Presumably, if all the water was “gathered to one place,” the dry ground would also be all “in one place.” Genesis 10:25 mentions, “…one was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided…” Some point to Genesis 10:25 as evidence that the earth was divided after the Flood of Noah, probably as a ruskut of the flood effect on the earth. This could very possibly explain the Pangea idea.
Last edited by Sir Toddalot on Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Regarding Religion

by Sir Toddalot » Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:20 pm

Sinque2 wrote:@Ninja The universe popping into existence out of nothing being incorrect is also saying God popping out of nothing is incorrect.

The universe existing for forever is also possible, perhaps every many billion years the universe is pulled into a ball somehow, and explodes in a big bang. I was thinking about science a few days ago, and it occurred to me that there could, theoretically be a black hole at the end of time, pulling objects through time, which is why we go through time. Mind you, I don't believe in this (at least not yet), there is about as little evidence and sense as, well, religion. Basically, objects will eventually get hot and stop moving apart from each other (again, still working on the theory), and will be pulled together into a ball. Then they go boom and explode in the big bang, starting a new age of the universe.

Also, objects do pop into existence out of nowhere, it is in quantum mechanics and has been proven. Granted, negative mass also pops into existence and instant later the matter is gone, but still.

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Well if your saying the universe popped out of nothing, then who's to say God didn't either? Though the Bible implies God has existed forever, and has no beginning or no end.
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Re: Regarding Religion

by The Kingmaker » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:32 pm

I do try my best to understand the viewpoints of others. When arguing I do always stop and take a step back to add context and perspective and make certain I actually believe what I'm arguing for. However Creationism Vs Evolution is an argument I find understanding both sides rather difficult.

Therefore @Ninja
How do you explain simple evidence we have for things older than 6017 years and six days?
Ignoring fossil and sedimentary records, what about, say, Neolithic settlements and tools we've discovered, which date back ~10-8 BC, or of the other humanoid species such as Homo-Erectus and the like, or the eruption of The Supervolcano under Lake Toba in Indonesia which caused a volcanic winter and spewed out ash you can literally see if you dig down far enough, which occurred roughly 74-76000 years ago.

Also I'm genuinely curious as to your viewpoint about two reasonably simple concepts:
A) life outside/before our universe and our planet, and your stance on its hypothetical existence
B) the editing of the bible in history to suit agendas at various points. I.E. The cropping of some books in Roman France by scholars under persecution in order to provide a more focused version of Christianity for their believers to die for, (leading to the removal of the Book of Judas which I find pretty fascinating), later with passages and bits being selected and raised up for say, the Inquisions, or even recently with singular sentences from Leviticus being taken to justify homophobia despite blatantly ignoring the rest of Leviticus (mmmmmm shellfish).
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Re: Regarding Religion

by NastyBird339 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:20 pm

AerisDraco wrote:Can I support the interpretation that the world was created not long ago by planet-builders hired by 4th-dimensional beings that manifest in this dimension as mice; and that it's purpose was to act as a biological supercomputer to figure out what the Question is?


Out of all these I feel,personally this one makes the most sense.
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Re: Regarding Religion

by Magnus0 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:57 pm

Sir Toddalot wrote:
Magnus0 wrote:I honestly don´t understand how the entire history of the earth can possibly fit in only 6000 years.

Did God create the world with buried dinosaur fossils included? Or have dinosaurs never existed, because they're not mentioned in the bible? Have they existed alongside humans and just died out somehow? If so, then why did the dinosaurs die and not the humans?

What about geographical phenomenon, like say earthquakes and eruptions. In most cases, those things happen because pressure is being built up and then released at once (obviously it's more complicated than this, but you get the idea). It can take over 6000 years to build sufficient pressure for some of the strongest quakes or eruptions that have happened on earth, so how can strong earthquakes and eruptions occur if the earth isn't even that old.

Has the Pangea-continent existed? Is it just coincidence that the east coast of South-America and the west coast of Afrika seem to align almost seamlessly? Is it just coincidence that fossils of the same sort of species of animal have been found on both South-America and Africa, and only on those two continents, even though animal would never be able to cross the giant ocean that lies between both continents currently?

These are genuine questions that come to mind when someone tells me that they believe that the earth is 6000 years old. I don't want to offend you Ninja, but I was honestly surprised when I read that you're a young-earth creationist. There's just so much solid evidence against the theory, that it is pretty bold, or even ignorant to think in a young earth. The more I think about it, the less it makes sense to me.


Dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible, Job 40. They were probably tons before the flood, and before the flood all animals were plant eaters so they would have lived alongside humans. After the flood, there would have been only two of each kind of dinosaurs left, and after the flood there would have been a huge lack of food, the environment of earth would have been much different than before, and tons of species would have died off, including the dinosaur. As for the fossils, well the flood was a huge natural disaster that took place very suddenly, the quick burial of tons of animals and World being completely covered in water caused the fossilization of tons of animals. (Please excuse my horrible sentence structure and grammar.)

As for the Pangea theory, well that can be explained to. Genesis 1:9 records, “And God said, ‘Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.’ And it was so.” Presumably, if all the water was “gathered to one place,” the dry ground would also be all “in one place.” Genesis 10:25 mentions, “…one was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided…” Some point to Genesis 10:25 as evidence that the earth was divided after the Flood of Noah, probably as a ruskut of the flood effect on the earth. This could very possibly explain the Pangea idea.


The great flood didn't happen though. There's not enough water on the earth to flood the entire planet. Rain is not water that magically falls from the skye, the water has to come from somewhere. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but, 'before the flood all animals were plant eaters', is plain false, even according to the bible. Using logic of the bible, all animals we know today must have been on the arch since there is no evolution. All of them, including carnivores.That's simply impossible. The arch would have had to be massive, way too big for a single man and his family to ever build. Good luck trying to get a male and a female brontosaurus in your boat. Everything surrounding the great flood has never happened, it's simply impossible.

My interpretation of the bible is that all the stories are about morals. For example, Jesus cures people that have really bad illnesses or blindness. I think that this didn't really happen, but it still teaches people morals. Don't neglect people because of a disatvantage that they didn't ask for, because that's not fair. Or the story with the bread and the fish: share your things with people that need it.Things like that are the essence of religion in my opinion. Wether the events in the stories really happened and wether God is real or not is completely irrelevant, it's about the message.
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Re: Regarding Religion

by SealDarklight » Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:07 pm

It's obvious that an arch couldn't fit all animals into the arch since not only is boat going to sink but even if it doesn't sink you have to feed them and you need as much food as all the animals. We all know how bullshit that is but even the arch isn't as ridiculous as the tower of Babel. How on earth could they build so large tower that doesn't even exist. It's said that they could go to heaven witch is a size of a mount Everest and even then if it exists there would be a place and ruins bot the problem is that it doesn't exist since at that time pyramids were the largest man build at that time and it would take a whole world of people to build it and it takes forever. Well its all tails and morals that people tell on bible and Koran and you shouldn't take it realistically since we all know what lies on top of our sky and if god destroyed the tower it would destroy New york, Hong Kong and other buildings as well.
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Re: Regarding Religion

by The Kingmaker » Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:06 pm

I'd also suggest about how like all myths biblical tales have some roots in reality, but takin them word for word is absolutely pointless.
For instance there were numerous floods in Mesopotamia and evidence that farmers could've built arks for their families and cattle which was embellished and added to over the years. Or how baby Moses, abandoned on the river in a basket to be found by a princess is also from ancient Mesopotamia and predates the bible.
I genuinely believe a man roughly 2000 years ago stirred some shit up and got executed for it. I don't think people should base their entire lives and deny others rights based upon fragmential details in times about a man, told after his death by friends of friends and translated and edited as the years go on, changing meaning each time.
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Re: Regarding Religion

by Big Bad Bug » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:59 am

I have a question: Why do we have the time period marked by B.C., or Before Christ, then A.D., or After Death? What happened in between that time? Why don't we have a name for it, and why have I never seen this addressed before by anyone, anywhere?

Also, Ninja, have fun replying to even more messages now. :twisted:
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Re: Regarding Religion

by RaZoR LeAf » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:16 am

Big Bad Bug wrote:I have a question: Why do we have the time period marked by B.C., or Before Christ, then A.D., or After Death? What happened in between that time? Why don't we have a name for it, and why have I never seen this addressed before by anyone, anywhere?

Also, Ninja, have fun replying to even more messages now. :twisted:


Because in this instance you are wrong. AD stands for Anno Domini, which is latin for 'in the year of the Lord'. BC, Christ is born, AD.
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